The Marvels | November 10, 2023 | Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter

[BadOlCatSylvester]

1 hour ago, toutvabien said:

Just straight up crazy how different the momentum of the MCU was back when the first film released vs now. Back then, it was an unparalled success, it was at the center of cultural zeitgeist, hype was in uncharted territory, just weeks away from what would become the biggest film ever. A phenomeon like nothing the world had ever seen. The world welcomed Carol's debut to the sound of $455 million! A character most people had never heard about.

 

Cut to now, with Variety putting out a bullshit hit piece with half their claims debunked as clickbait nonsense, because any traction the MCU gets at this point is about how much of a mess it is behind the scenes and how it's being run into the ground. It's the perfect timing for the perfect negativity storm, as Marvel can't put into work their own hype machine properly. There's never been this much negative buzz on Marvel Studios as there's been these last couple of weeks, it's quite crazy. Loki is getting crazier and crazier and is straight up some of the best stuff they put out, but it's living under the dark cover of this enormous cloud.

Loki's finale and The Marvels landing at the same time is going to make the latter look embarrassing by comparison. Just look at the bold filmmaking, real and lived-in sets, stellar acting and excellent tension in Loki and compare it to the generally cookie cutter CGI greenscreen action seen in the Marvels promotional material so far. The recent report about the viewership data for Loki Season 2 pisses me off so much, because it proves that the larger meltdown of the Marvel brand is immensely overshadowing it. I really hope more people give it a chance a few years down the line, when Marvel is in a better place, because you're right, so far it is one of the best stories in the entire franchise.

[TwoMisfits]

If nothing else, the silver lining is that no one will be questioning Disney for putting this release so tight to Wish.  It's gonna be a Dec holiday repeat of last year where Disney protects one November movie for the Christmas to New Year timeframe, but this time, it will likely be the animated over the super.

[SpiderByte]

It'd be nice to have literally one, just one, Marvel release not treated as the final referendum on the future of the studio. Even the most cynical people didn't look at Ahsoka and say "oh yes, clearly they're going to shut down Lucasfilm if they don't hard reboot star wars"

[DInky]

1 hour ago, Masketta Man said:

I think it's less of a miscasting problem and more that Carol Danvers isn't a particularly interesting character that have been pushed hard into the limelight without a solid foundation to work with. I mean, when you have to resort to use Dr. Minerva and the Ronan cosplayer as the antagonists of the duology, it's safe to admit you have a problem with the supporting cast of that character.

 

Same goes for a lot of the new/legacy heroes (Sam, Rhodey, She-Hulk, Ironheart, Kate Bishop, Kamala). They're likeable but they don't have that defining dramatic backstory that makes them unique and motivates them. Making Sam Captain America instead of Bucky was a bad decision because Bucky is a much more interesting character. The Sam & Bucky show made that blatantly obvious. I also don't see people showing up for Armor Wars because Rhodey is just a bland character. He's a military man. That's it.

And a character like Jane, who could have had a lot of potential with her cancer struggle, was wasted on a bad comedy,

[Masketta Man]

27 minutes ago, DInky said:

 

Same goes for a lot of the new/legacy heroes (Sam, Rhodey, She-Hulk, Ironheart, Kate Bishop, Kamala). They're likeable but they don't have that defining dramatic backstory that makes them unique and motivates them. Making Sam Captain America instead of Bucky was a bad decision because Bucky is a much more interesting character. The Sam & Bucky show made that blatantly obvious. I also don't see people showing up for Armor Wars because Rhodey is just a bland character. He's a military man. That's it.

And a character like Jane, who could have had a lot of potential with her cancer struggle, was wasted on a bad comedy,

Agree with most of that but Kamala, she is easily the best of the legacy characters and way better than the character she took the mantle from, it's just that they screwed the character development and the development of the supporting cast by skipping several arcs of her story and sending her to Pakistan so early.

[Sckathian]

14 hours ago, SpiderByte said:

Like Christ I genuinely like what I've seen of the movie but it's very hard to stay excited when basically even the press is rooting for a disaster.

This is probably the bigger issue for Marvel right now. There’s just a tone of how people view them. I think it’s down to dumb, arrogant but also greedy senior management decisions trying to milk it.

 

Anyone who worked in media for a long term - especially Disney - should know about managing your franchise, and not milking the fuck out of it. 
 

If you list the bad stuff it’s not that horrific compared to the good/mediocre. I just think the issue is too much. Loki numbers reflect this, when it came out it was hot and new and OMG MCU on a weekly basis. Now? It’s just another show. Just another film. 
 

And yet inexplicably the fans who want all this content are getting cliffhangers, sequel bait that even now has NO plans in what is supposed to be this well planned hyped universe. I think Disney need a plan for how to keep both groups, retain loosely linked blockbuster films/completely distinct TV and some things more linked. But they need to be distinct of one another or you’ll lose them all.

 

There is not one problem nor one solution. I still think calling this ‘The Marvels’ and sticking D+ characters in (one who was a side character! And both without multiple series to build them up!) is the biggest mistake (and sign of total arrogance and self pleasing) and a clear executive oversight blunder. Should not have happened.

 

 

[Sckathian]

50 minutes ago, SpiderByte said:

It'd be nice to have literally one, just one, Marvel release not treated as the final referendum on the future of the studio. Even the most cynical people didn't look at Ahsoka and say "oh yes, clearly they're going to shut down Lucasfilm if they don't hard reboot star wars"

I mean they have had to cancel multiple films over the years, have a mess of a slate and on the TV side appear to have declining returns. So yeah uncle Disney will be counting the money.

[John Marston]

Loki is also now apparently collapsing in the ratings. Maybe using a web series to set up several elements of your next phase including the new big bad wasn’t the smartest idea 

[Torontofan]

I think audiences in modern times dont like all powerful heros with no flaws or weaknesses.

 

Feel why public like Iron man so much vs Superman. 

 

Iron man was a drunk, a womenizer and warmonger in the first movie.

 

CM in the first movie was like perfect lol 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Torontofan

[SpiderByte]

19 minutes ago, Sckathian said:

I mean they have had to cancel multiple films over the years, have a mess of a slate and on the TV side appear to have declining returns. So yeah uncle Disney will be counting the money.

They cancelled Inhumans, which literally Feige never wanted and was only cancelled because Perlmutter wanted a big push to replace the X-Men across the entire Marvel company. It wasn't canned due to Ant-Man or whatever. The only other cancellation was Runaways and that was in like 2010 when they decided to do Avengers basically.

[SpiderByte]

10 minutes ago, John Marston said:

Loki is also now apparently collapsing in the ratings. Maybe using a web series to set up several elements of your next phase including the new big bad wasn’t the smartest idea 

See how the exact fucking thing I was saying was annoying immediately happened right after I posted it lol

 

People on here cannot simultaneously whine that things aren't setting up the big picture enough and then also whine that "why isn't Echo setting up Kang?? WhO aSkEd FoR ThIs? WOKE" shit.

Edited November 3, 2023 by SpiderByte

[DInky]

13 minutes ago, Torontofan said:

I think audiences in modern times dont like all powerful heros with no flaws or weaknesses.

 

Feel why public like Iron man so much vs Superman. 

 

Iron man was a drunk, a womenizer and warmonger in the first movie.

 

CM in the first movie was like perfect lol 

 

 

Iron Man became a less interesting character with each movie but Robert Downy Jr. was simply so charming that most people didn't notice.

[Bob Train]

1 hour ago, SpiderByte said:

It'd be nice to have literally one, just one, Marvel release not treated as the final referendum on the future of the studio. Even the most cynical people didn't look at Ahsoka and say "oh yes, clearly they're going to shut down Lucasfilm if they don't hard reboot star wars"

They aren't gonna cancel the MCU. Apart from Avatar 2, the highest grossing Disney releases post-COVID are all MCU.

[Kon]

9 hours ago, MovieMan89 said:

Everything Ms Marvel related is going to be what saves this movie. Kamala’s mom easily stealing that scene even without hardly anything to do. 

"It's so good to see you, lietenaunt trouble" from Carol was making for a nice moment, but Monica's answer ruined it. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Kon

[Valencia]

15 minutes ago, Bob Train said:

They aren't gonna cancel the MCU. Apart from Avatar 2, the highest grossing Disney releases post-COVID are all MCU.

Yeah honestly.

 

Look at DC. 
 

They’re 0-7. 7 straight flops deep, and still promising more movies.

 

This is only 2 in their last 3 for Marvel.

 

And Deadpool will give them a break before the 3 straight bombs of Cap 4, Thunderbolts, and Blade are released.

 

That’s only 2-5 in their last 7.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Valencia

[Torontofan]

16 minutes ago, DInky said:

 

Iron Man became a less interesting character with each movie but Robert Downy Jr. was simply so charming that most people didn't notice.

 

Even if Captain Marvel is a bland character I think Carol Danvers as a person is quite bland personality. 

[YM!]

36 minutes ago, Sckathian said:

This is probably the bigger issue for Marvel right now. There’s just a tone of how people view them. I think it’s down to dumb, arrogant but also greedy senior management decisions trying to milk it.

 

Anyone who worked in media for a long term - especially Disney - should know about managing your franchise, and not milking the fuck out of it. 
 

If you list the bad stuff it’s not that horrific compared to the good/mediocre. I just think the issue is too much. Loki numbers reflect this, when it came out it was hot and new and OMG MCU on a weekly basis. Now? It’s just another show. Just another film. 
 

And yet inexplicably the fans who want all this content are getting cliffhangers, sequel bait that even now has NO plans in what is supposed to be this well planned hyped universe. I think Disney need a plan for how to keep both groups, retain loosely linked blockbuster films/completely distinct TV and some things more linked. But they need to be distinct of one another or you’ll lose them all.

 

There is not one problem nor one solution. I still think calling this ‘The Marvels’ and sticking D+ characters in (one who was a side character! And both without multiple series to build them up!) is the biggest mistake (and sign of total arrogance and self pleasing) and a clear executive oversight blunder. Should not have happened.

 

 

I’m just going to say my last piece and get it over with. 
 

I think the main problem was it became too much like the comics as even though it’s as consistent as Phase 1/2 in quality. Most of it is mediocre to serviceable entertainment with a few standouts here and there (Iron Man, Cap 1, Avengers, GOTG, IM3 (though definitely not at the time lol) and TWS vs Shang-Chi, NWH, Wakanda Forever, Guardians 3, WandaVision, and Loki - each at about six fan favorites) but the problem is content has tripled. In Phase 1, there were six projects in 4 years and in Phase 2 there were six projects in 2 years so 12 projects in six year with two every year on average.

 

In a two and a half year timespan, there have been 22 projects with the majority (17-ish being in Phase 4 and that was about a year and half of time). You’ve taken away the event status Phase 4. One can easily jump in a project, if they haven’t seen a past film - Marvel movies are designed to be like this as are most franchise installments but it now feels like homework because there’s just too many projects where it exhausts Feige and company (225m for a nine part series is ridiculous and I think She-Hulk is probably the best show they put out) as well as both fans and the GA are less forgiving to “mid” as that’s what most are. Especially when the Marvel attitude is a lot of the fixing is in post production is hard to do when you have 6 other projects that year to compete with. There also isn’t a lynchpin to help unite the characters.

 

I think making everything an Avengers-level world ending threat bit them in the ass in a lot of shows and movies too. Avengers movies shouldn’t have to have world ending stakes everytime. I think if there was an Avengers film before Kang Dynasty, just uniting FalCap, She-Hulk, Strange, Thor, Carol etc and giving them time to bounce off and interact with each other would’ve helped these characters worm their way into hearts. Thor originally wasn’t interesting until a few Avengers movies, Hulk beat the flop rumors after Avengers, and Avengers was enough to wash the taste of Iron Man 2 out of the mouths of the GA.
 

Why couldn’t they have fought Masters of Evil. A group of supervillains trying to fill in the power vacuum on paper seems like an idea most would get behind - you do not need to top Thanos, you just need to be coherent. The amount of time between TFA and TWS is about the same as TFATWS and BNW but SteveCap has had far more appearances and less media in between vs FalCap. It’s hard to get invested in a character when there’s waves before it. I also think they could’ve done a Ms. Marvel movie on budget of Shazam!/Blue Beetle, like wouldn’t have done more than Shazam but it’d be enough to attract more outside the fandom and get more invested. They could’ve also introduced the Champions/Young Avengers in one movie or show (preferably show because Disney/Marvel or any studio for that matter has the balls to do a LBGTQ romance) and then go from there. Sure, you can bring up Justice League but that had a myriad of other issues

 

 

A small part of it is in fact a vocal minority spouting racism/misogyny (like I understand not liking Kamala but she has had more development in one show than MCU Peter who has repeated the same arc in six movies he’s been in) but I think the way Marvel moves forward post Secret Wars is a scale back on content, something like 2 to 3 films a year with (one having a lower budgeted more director driven approach) and 2 shows (a non canon one and a year long canon one). Maybe take a break right after Secret Wars, not one that was due to circumstances like Covid or the strikes but an actual break to figure shit out for shows and movies. Don’t start production until you have a script you’re proud of and everyone is on the same page The best they can do know is get through what they have now, and cut out or push back things that are still in development. 

[PlatnumRoyce]

1 hour ago, SpiderByte said:

It'd be nice to have literally one, just one, Marvel release not treated as the final referendum on the future of the studio. Even the most cynical people didn't look at Ahsoka and say "oh yes, clearly they're going to shut down Lucasfilm if they don't hard reboot star wars"

Not to shamelessly derail the thread, but that might have been apt.  If Ahsoka actually bombed, I think it really would have endangered "the Filloniverse" (outside of Mando) including that big crossover film by exposing a fragility to building off of moderately rated animated cable tv kids shows for the core star wars tentpole stuff currently in production. If viewership fell off of a cliff for Ahsoka that really would derail current TV plans especially if they're continuing on the current course.

 

Ahsoka's more like Hawkeye than Quantummania. You can debate it but it ultimately obviously reached some sort of competent baseline while demonstrating a strong IP viewership baseline.  

Edited November 3, 2023 by PlatnumRoyce

[Sckathian]

52 minutes ago, SpiderByte said:

They cancelled Inhumans, which literally Feige never wanted and was only cancelled because Perlmutter wanted a big push to replace the X-Men across the entire Marvel company. It wasn't canned due to Ant-Man or whatever. The only other cancellation was Runaways and that was in like 2010 when they decided to do Avengers basically.

…am talking about Star Wars. Unless am missing your point are you not equating Marvels struggling to Ashoka’s results and suggesting it would be ridiculous to suggest off Star Wars that Star Wars is failing?

 

MCU is miles from that disaster. The success they are having is very downsized on the Star Wars end.

[Morieris]

I have nothing to say about *waves* besides I saw a tryptitch of the three leads on a digital billboard in my city.

 

The absolute last time I saw that was either Dead Reckoning OR Ben Hur 2016.

 

Make of that what you will.