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[Krissykins]

On 12/27/2020 at 11:11 PM, belblazer said:

The last Barbara scene is interesting. We can see in her face that she still is a villain but renounced her wish to be a apex predator, but probably not to be like Diana.

 

Hopefully we will see her again on the next movie and Circe can turn her on a leopard again.

Yeh Barbara didn’t renounce any wish!

On 12/28/2020 at 12:32 AM, Fielding said:

This criticism has popped up a lot, and I think a lot of people are forgetting that WW84 is a homage to the films of 80s, which was THE decade for the magical body-swap genre.

Yeh I don’t think they’ve seen a film pre-2012. But if they’ve chosen to take offence to it, that’s their choice I guess. It is a wish that isn’t real, in a superhero film, where nothing is real. So I find it bizarre that these guys are so upset about it. Is consent ever given in a body swap comedy? They have films to revisit. 

On 12/29/2020 at 6:22 AM, marveldcfox said:

This one paled in every possible way.

score, everything is just so pedestrian. 

 

Woof! Cold take. 

[Menor the Destroyer]

Start off with the good parts: there were some good emotional parts such as Diana renouncing her wish and Max Lord's relationship with his son, Barbara was effective for the beginning/middle of her arc. Opening scene was quite entertaining and the climax was effective. Max Lord was a very entertaining and effective villain. Overall it did leave me entertained by the end.

 

And the bad: I guess the biggest problem is that the first 3/4 of the film is incredibly lacking in any sort of urgency or momentum. Things move at a glacial pace until the White House scenes, and I felt like the Chris Pine out-of-time comedy dragged. The body swap thing is a problem, both Diana and Steve should have seen the issue there. The McGuffin hunt brought in some of my least favorite tropes, such as connecting the McGuffin to a bunch of civilizations throughout history, and it wasn't even a very interesting McGuffin to justify that much time spent looking for it's origins. The action was lame and uninteresting. Barbara's descent into villainy was rushed.

 

Some nitpicks, which aren't huge problems but bothered me a bit: Steve being able to fly the plane, convenient invisibility power, and why was she suddenly able to fly? Overall a lot of things seemed to just happen too conveniently, and while each one is not a huge deal on it's own they do add up.

 

I also have to say I'm not sure about the film's themes. First of all in the opening scene, are we supposed to think that Diana did something bad by finding an alternative route? To me that looks like creativity. And the idea that getting anything valuable without working hard for it is somehow immoral doesn't jive with me. Sometimes you luck into things, and there's nothing wrong with that. I understand the message against greed and always wanting more, but I felt the film in a way took it too far.

 

Overall it certainly wasn't the worst superhero film but it's a big dropoff from the first. 5.5/10

Edited December 30, 2020 by Menor

[Krissykins]

4 minutes ago, Menor said:

 

I also have to say I'm not sure about the film's themes. First of all in the opening scene, are we supposed to think that Diana did something bad by finding an alternative route? To me that looks like creativity. And the idea that getting anything valuable without working hard for it is somehow immoral doesn't jive with me. Sometimes you luck into things, and there's nothing wrong with that. I understand the message against greed and always wanting more, but I felt the film in a way took it too far.

Well, yes, she cheated. It wasn’t luck. She missed her blue powder marker, and tried to skip it. So she cheated, which is wrong. 
 

The reason Diana was finally able to fly was included within Steve’s dialogue. 

[expensiveho]

3 minutes ago, Menor said:

I also have to say I'm not sure about the film's themes. First of all in the opening scene, are we supposed to think that Diana did something bad by finding an alternative route? To me that looks like creativity. And the idea that getting anything valuable without working hard for it is somehow immoral doesn't jive with me. Sometimes you luck into things, and there's nothing wrong with that. I understand the message against greed and always wanting more, but I felt the film in a way took it too far.

I think they tried to go with "Diana tried to cheat after losing the chance to win" but was poorly executed (like a lot of other stuff in the film)

 

I actually thought they were trying to encourage people to not give up and find solutions to fix your mistakes and was kinda shocked it finished like that. 

[Menor the Destroyer]

7 minutes ago, Krissykins said:

Well, yes, she cheated. It wasn’t luck. She missed her blue powder marker, and tried to skip it. So she cheated, which is wrong. 
 

The reason Diana was finally able to fly was included within Steve’s dialogue. 

Eh, I don't think it was made clear why missing the blue mark was considered so bad. Like to me, that looked like she found a creative solution after the bad luck of getting thrown off the horse. I get that the film is giving me a "cheating is wrong" message, but I don't think the scene delivered that convincingly. And I don't really think that flying because of a vague pep talk is that convincing.

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Menor

[lorddemaxus]

1 hour ago, Menor said:

And the idea that getting anything valuable without working hard for it is somehow immoral doesn't jive with me. Sometimes you luck into things, and there's nothing wrong with that. I understand the message against greed and always wanting more, but I felt the film in a way took it too far.

The point is that it happens at the cost of something else. Even that body-swap thing unintentionally fits into this theme. It's not about lucking into things. 

[Menor the Destroyer]

8 minutes ago, lorddemaxus said:

The point is that it happens at the cost of something else. Even that body-swap thing unintentionally fits into this theme. It's not about lucking into things. 

Yes, that's what happens in the film, but what I mean is that the message the film is trying to convey with this plotline is something I don't agree with. It promotes the idea that taking "shortcuts" to achieve things is inherently bad. 

 

Edit: made a statement about the wishes which is not completely accurate

Edited December 30, 2020 by Menor

[lorddemaxus]

3 minutes ago, Menor said:

Yes, that's what happens in the film, but what I mean is that the message the film is trying to convey with this plotline is something I don't agree with. I mean, just look at the fact that everyone's wish was something bad/aggressive. Other than Lord's son, you never saw someone wish for something like curing their cancer, or getting themselves out of an abusive situation or poverty. It seemed to convey the idea that wishing for something more is inherently bad.

I already talked about this earlier:

Quote

There are no "good wishes" with a monkey paw tho. That's the point. I'm honestly happy they didn't show any "good wishes" in the movie go horribly wrong because then that would actually enforce the point that people wishing for better things is bad.

 

[Menor the Destroyer]

2 minutes ago, lorddemaxus said:

I already talked about this earlier:

 

I don't see why the monkey's paw would prevent there from being "good wishes"? The "good wishes" would just come with a price. 

[Legion Again]

Using a monkey’s paw is a poor way to try to get their message across imo, because in real life unexpected good things don’t always come with a hidden price. Themes were a totally whiff for me. Really tried to hammer home “something something truth,” but like... the problem with the wishes was the cost, not that the benefits weren’t real, because they were. It’s not even a McGuffin that made any sense for a truth vs deception Aesop.

Edited December 30, 2020 by WandaLegion

[lorddemaxus]

9 minutes ago, Menor said:

I don't see why the monkey's paw would prevent there from being "good wishes"? The "good wishes" would just come with a price. 

The good wishes just won't happen properly either. It's them getting the shittiest version of their wish on top of it costing them something. 

 

I agree that it's not really properly communicated (when was the last time a superhero movie has done that even?) but it makes sense on a surface level.

Edited December 30, 2020 by lorddemaxus

[Menor the Destroyer]

3 minutes ago, lorddemaxus said:

The good wishes just won't happen properly either. It's them getting the shittiest version of their wish on top of it costing them something. 

 

I agree that it's not really properly communicated (when was the last time a superhero movie has done that even?) but it makes sense on a surface level.

But the wishes did happen properly other than the body swap Steve. Barbara did become "like Diana". Max Lord did become the wishing stone. That woman did drop dead. The issue was the price. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Menor

[lorddemaxus]

Just now, Menor said:

But the wishes did happen properly other than the body swap Steve. Barbara did become "like Diana". Max Lord did become the wishing stone. That lady did drop dead. The issue was the price. 

Yeah it's inconsistent, but regarding Max Lord, he did have to touch people to grant them their wish instead of doing it whenever he wanted. There's also the land being returned to the Egyptian guy just meant a huge-ass wall got erected, the guy who wished for coffee got it too hot, the guy who wanted a farm just got cows in the middle of the city. 

[Menor the Destroyer]

1 minute ago, lorddemaxus said:

Yeah it's inconsistent, but regarding Max Lord, he did have to touch people to grant them their wish instead of doing it whenever he wanted. There's also the land being returned to the Egyptian guy just meant a huge-ass wall got erected, the guy who wished for coffee got it too hot, the guy who wanted a farm just got cows in the middle of the city. 

Fair, but if it's not consistent then it defeats the purpose of including that aspect. 

[lorddemaxus]

14 minutes ago, Menor said:

Fair, but if it's not consistent then it defeats the purpose of including that aspect. 

I rarely find superhero movies (including the first film) to be consistent with their themes and text so I didn't really find it to be that bad.

Edited December 30, 2020 by lorddemaxus

[TwoMisfits]

14 minutes ago, Menor said:

Fair, but if it's not consistent then it defeats the purpose of including that aspect. 

Even the "good ones" - Diana only got Steve in another man's body, Max got to be the stone but it was killing him, Barbara got to "be like Diana" in powers only missing all of her goodness.  There was not a dream that turned out the way the person really wanted for good...

 

I got the "nothing good ultimately comes from these wishes"...and then, you paid a price, too...

[Menor the Destroyer]

1 hour ago, TwoMisfits said:

Even the "good ones" - Diana only got Steve in another man's body, Max got to be the stone but it was killing him, Barbara got to "be like Diana" in powers only missing all of her goodness.  There was not a dream that turned out the way the person really wanted for good...

 

I got the "nothing good ultimately comes from these wishes"...and then, you paid a price, too...

Max being slowly killed and Barbara losing her goodness was the price, though. The wishes themselves were granted perfectly. 

 

1 hour ago, lorddemaxus said:

I rarely find superhero movies (including the first film) to be consistent with their themes and text so I didn't really find it to be that bad.

Yeah but other superhero films usually don't try to explicitly push their themes as much as this does, so that makes the inconsistencies stand out much more. 

[lorddemaxus]

6 minutes ago, Menor said:

Yeah but other superhero films usually don't try to explicitly push their themes as much as this does, so that makes the inconsistencies stand out much more. 

I don't think this pushes it any further than a typical superhero film does. It's a core part of the conflict but that's just basic storytelling and not just part of every superhero movie but every major movie release in existence. I can't think of a single superhero movie from last year or the one before that doesn't try to explicitly push a theme. At most, a bunch of movies just forget about the themes half-way through (which still makes all that very inconsistent).

[Menor the Destroyer]

5 minutes ago, lorddemaxus said:

I don't think this pushes it any further than a typical superhero film does. It's a core part of the conflict but that's just basic storytelling and not just part of every superhero movie but every major movie release in existence. I can't think of a single superhero movie from last year or the one before that doesn't try to explicitly push a theme. At most, a bunch of movies just forget about the themes half-way through (which still makes all that very inconsistent).

What I mean is with the monologues about truth and stuff like that. Also the opening scene having no relation to the plot and only existing for a metaphorical purpose. You didn't see that in a movie like Aquaman, for example. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Menor

[TwoMisfits]

28 minutes ago, Menor said:

What I mean is with the monologues about truth and stuff like that. Also the opening scene having no relation to the plot and only existing for a metaphorical purpose. You didn't see that in a movie like Aquaman, for example. 

Opening scene with little Diana is the plot...you can't cheat your way to happiness...you can't lie to yourself about your achievements/happiness/etc.  You need to do the work yourself to get to where you want in life...

 

Now, the opening mall scene was a throw away cute scene, that, I'll agree...but it was a "where's Diana and why don't folks know" thing...thus, wrecking the cameras, asking kids to stay quiet, etc...

Edited December 30, 2020 by TwoMisfits