Black Adam | October 21, 2022 | New Line | Don't worry, it's a hit. Dwayne Johnson says so!

[Napoleon]

10 hours ago, filmnerdjamie said:

 

People lie. Number never lie and the numbers absolutely do not back the claims of "that actor" being popular in that role.

 

Otherwise the DC Universe would have been wildly different after June 2013.

The movies with him in the lead are the 1st and 3rd biggest openings in the DCEU. The 2nd biggest opening was also a movie heavily promoted as connected to those other two (his character was even mentioned in the trailers). The numbers literally show him as the most popular actor in the DCEU.

[filmnerdjamie]

1 hour ago, Napoleon said:

The movies with him in the lead are the 1st and 3rd biggest openings in the DCEU. The 2nd biggest opening was also a movie heavily promoted as connected to those other two (his character was even mentioned in the trailers). The numbers literally show him as the most popular actor in the DCEU.

 

Those opening weekends were all about marketing/hooks. They did their job. People showed up. They were intrigued.

 

But you're ignoring their horrid second weekend drops and negative WOM. Off it's massive opening, Man of Steel should have finished up at $325-$350M. It topped out at $291M. Batman vs Superman was even more front-loaded and sank like a stone even harder than Man of Steel.

 

Those all made for quite the discussions here.

 

In the case of Man of Steel, it directly resulted in Batman v Superman happening instead of a Man of Steel sequel.

 

The numbers that matter (those subsequent drops after it's opening) literally show he wasn't the most popular actor in the DCEU. Otherwise we'd have had sequels to Man of Steel by 2015 as originally planned in between Man From UNCLE sequels.

 

People lie. Numbers never lie.

[TestPattern]

 

[Napoleon]

2 minutes ago, filmnerdjamie said:

 

Those opening weekends were all about marketing/hooks. They did their job. People showed up. They were intrigued.

 

But you're ignoring their horrid second weekend drops and negative WOM. Off it's massive opening, Man of Steel should have finished up at $325-$350M. It topped out at $291M. Batman vs Superman was even more front-loaded and sank like a stone even harder than Man of Steel.

 

Those all made for quite the discussions here.

 

In the case of Man of Steel, it directly resulted in Batman v Superman happening instead of a Man of Steel sequel.

 

The numbers that matter (those subsequent drops after it's opening) literally show he wasn't the most popular actor in the DCEU. Otherwise we'd have had sequels to Man of Steel by 2015 as originally planned in between Man From UNCLE sequels.

 

People lie. Numbers never lie.

I'm ignoring the second weekend drops because they didn't stop Batman v Superman, Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman from breaking opening records. If we're going by the numbers, they show audiences excited to see the movies around that character, despite whatever reception the previous film had. If the character returns and drives record breaking ticket sales for the franchise again, it doesn't matter how badly previous films were received.

[WittyUsername]

29 minutes ago, filmnerdjamie said:

In the case of Man of Steel, it directly resulted in Batman v Superman happening instead of a Man of Steel sequel.

That’s not quite accurate. BvS was already in development before MoS was released. 

[filmnerdjamie]

5 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

That’s not quite accurate. BvS was already in development before MoS was released. 

 

A Man of Steel sequel was in development. Not Batman vs Superman.

 

That huge second weekend drop (and the narrative about the destruction porn third act - an unfair criticism, for my money) directly made them panic and change course.

[WittyUsername]

2 minutes ago, filmnerdjamie said:

 

A Man of Steel sequel was in development. Not Batman vs Superman.

 

That huge second weekend drop (and the narrative about the destruction porn third act - an unfair criticism, for my money) directly made them panic and change course.

There’s no evidence to support this. Snyder has talked about how the idea for BvS first came about after The Avengers was released, and Jay Olivia mentioned that Snyder showed him storyboards of Batman fighting Superman around March 2013, which was three months before the release of MoS. 

[excel1]

30 minutes ago, filmnerdjamie said:

 

Those opening weekends were all about marketing/hooks. They did their job. People showed up. They were intrigued.

 

But you're ignoring their horrid second weekend drops and negative WOM. Off it's massive opening, Man of Steel should have finished up at $325-$350M. It topped out at $291M. Batman vs Superman was even more front-loaded and sank like a stone even harder than Man of Steel.

 

Those all made for quite the discussions here.

 

In the case of Man of Steel, it directly resulted in Batman v Superman happening instead of a Man of Steel sequel.

 

The numbers that matter (those subsequent drops after it's opening) literally show he wasn't the most popular actor in the DCEU. Otherwise we'd have had sequels to Man of Steel by 2015 as originally planned in between Man From UNCLE sequels.

 

People lie. Numbers never lie.

 

There is 100% revisionist history going on here with some regarding the performance of the films, but I also think you are over simplifying it a bit. Number never lie with regards to how to a particular film performed, for sure, but 1) context is certainly needed to fully understand, and 2) certain elements of films can be well received - and show potential for greater things in the future - than the whole of that individual film. Henry Cavill was well-received in the role in both films, particularly MOS. It is absolutely accurate to say that in the mainstream, Zack Snyder received the vast majority of the criticism for MOS and especially BvS reception. MOS was not the Superman film that most people wanted, though Cavill clearly showed that he could be the Superman that people wanted. Henry Cavil's popularity has only grown since his time as Superman as well. 

 

Man of Steel's WOM was not great nor was it terrible. It's atrocious 2nd weekend drop is mores due to horrendous scheduling by WB than anything else. MONSTERS U + WWZ opened in MOS 2nd weekend, targeting its direct demo. Those 2 films combined for $147m that weekend, totaling $470m domestic $1.3b global  - of course MOS was going to tank. Yes, a better film would have held a bit better, but MOS box office legs were always going to be subpar due to the positioning. It is a perfectly reasonable "hindsight is 20/20" claim to say that if MOS opened in July, where WB opted to open PACIFIC RIM instead, MOS easily clears $300m domestic and likely finishes in with a very solid $750-800mish range global. No, it would not be over $1 billion, but it is obviously well ahead of all of Marvel's solo efforts to date aside from IRON MAN 3 which obviously benefited hugely from AVENGERS .

 

The BIG lesson here moving forward, as demonstrated recently with THE BATMAN, is that the choice for DIRECTOR is an especially important piece of legitimizing a potential MAN OF STEEL 2. It has to be someone with a resume that the internet fanboy crowd considers worthy of artistic integrity, yet it also has to be mainstream. Whether WB does keep Cavill or start over with Jacob Elordi, the director pick has to be a respected name. 

 

IF they nabbed a Chris McQuirie type (or even, dare I say, Rain Johnson, Brad Bird or JJ Abrams), I think the film gets taken seriously and stands a chance at being a truly big box office hit. 

[excel1]

Just now, WittyUsername said:

There’s no evidence to support this. Snyder has talked about how the idea for BvS first came about after The Avengers was released, and Jay Olivia mentioned that Snyder showed him storyboards of Batman fighting Superman around March 2013, which was three months before the release of MoS. 

 

The box office multipliers combined with subpar reviews were absolutely concerning. Opening weekend to total multipliers were heavily impacted by competition, yes, but they still sucked. 

 

At the end of the day, results matter and there was not one single measurable number from MAN OF STEEL's performance that one could look at and say "wow, that is impressive" aside from very strong opening weekend (which was boosted a bit by the controversial Wal-Mart sneaks). The studio decided to throw in Batman to ensure Superman film 2 would see a hype increase, not decrease. Sadly the final product was even worse. 

[WittyUsername]

4 minutes ago, excel1 said:

 

The box office multipliers combined with subpar reviews were absolutely concerning. Opening weekend to total multipliers were heavily impacted by competition, yes, but they still sucked. 

 

At the end of the day, results matter and there was not one single measurable number from MAN OF STEEL's performance that one could look at and say "wow, that is impressive" aside from very strong opening weekend (which was boosted a bit by the controversial Wal-Mart sneaks). The studio decided to throw in Batman to ensure Superman film 2 would see a hype increase, not decrease. Sadly the final product was even worse. 

I never claimed that MoS didn’t have weak legs, but the idea for BvS came about before the movie was released, not after. That’s why the movie had the Wayne Enterprises Easter Egg.

Edited October 9, 2022 by WittyUsername

[excel1]

Anyone who doesn't think WB listened to the critics who complained of disaster porn in MOS, remember they actually had Anderson Cooper say "Fortunately the downtown area is completely deserted since the work day is over" in BVS. That line was without question forced into the film as a way of getting those critics to shut up. 

[grim22]

1 hour ago, excel1 said:

Anyone who doesn't think WB listened to the critics who complained of disaster porn in MOS, remember they actually had Anderson Cooper say "Fortunately the downtown area is completely deserted since the work day is over" in BVS. That line was without question forced into the film as a way of getting those critics to shut up. 

MoS is the single most influential CBM of the past decade in that respect.

 

Look at all the CBMs which came after it - every single one had it's climax in a non-descript completely abandoned location or had a lot of dialogue implying locations are empty or evacuated (see: Guardians 1, BvS, way too many things in Ultron). All major fights and setpieces are all set such that there will be no civilians ever put in danger.

 

It swung everything to an extreme thanks to online complaining. No one wants to stop a movie to try and deal with fallouts of superhero battles to appease online fans, so they just decided to stop making it an issue with CYA lines and settings.

[YM!]

1 hour ago, excel1 said:

Whether WB does keep Cavill or start over with Jacob Elordi, the director pick has to be a respected name. 

Stop trying to make Elrodi happen, he will never happen lol.

[Flip]

Let’s not forget that the superhero is the draw, not the actor. Virtually no one is going to see Cavill; they’re going to see Superman

[Jeight]

DC fans here still doing damage control over a decade later is hilarious. If Cavill, MOS, BvS or the majority of the DCEU were well received and "fan favorites" WB wouldnt use an event like Flashpoint to reboot the entire thing lmao.

 

Stop it, accept the truth. WB has restructured DC 5 times over the past decade. You dont appoint new leadership if the movies met their goals...

[efialtes76]

20 minutes ago, Jeight said:

DC fans here still doing damage control over a decade later is hilarious. If Cavill, MOS, BvS or the majority of the DCEU were well received and "fan favorites" WB wouldnt use an event like Flashpoint to reboot the entire thing lmao.

 

Stop it, accept the truth. WB has restructured DC 5 times over the past decade. You dont appoint new leadership if the movies met their goals...

Relax...

[excel1]

50 minutes ago, Jeight said:

DC fans here still doing damage control over a decade later is hilarious. If Cavill, MOS, BvS or the majority of the DCEU were well received and "fan favorites" WB wouldnt use an event like Flashpoint to reboot the entire thing lmao.

 

Stop it, accept the truth. WB has restructured DC 5 times over the past decade. You dont appoint new leadership if the movies met their goals...

 

This is exactly why it is fair to say that DC is a mixed bag, though. They are actively using that era's Wonder woman and Aquabro characters, and their first solo films were gigantic successes. They are releasing that era's version of Flash next year in a film that is widely hyped. There clearly were successful components of that era, that isn't arguable. 

 

Obviously BvS and especially JL were epic flops, but it is an oversimplification to say everything about them needed to be redone. That has already been proven incorrect.

Edited October 9, 2022 by excel1

[cax16]

Nvm

Edited October 9, 2022 by cax16

[John Marston]

4 hours ago, filmnerdjamie said:

 

Those opening weekends were all about marketing/hooks. They did their job. People showed up. They were intrigued.

 

But you're ignoring their horrid second weekend drops and negative WOM. Off it's massive opening, Man of Steel should have finished up at $325-$350M. It topped out at $291M. Batman vs Superman was even more front-loaded and sank like a stone even harder than Man of Steel.

 

Those all made for quite the discussions here.

 

In the case of Man of Steel, it directly resulted in Batman v Superman happening instead of a Man of Steel sequel.

 

The numbers that matter (those subsequent drops after it's opening) literally show he wasn't the most popular actor in the DCEU. Otherwise we'd have had sequels to Man of Steel by 2015 as originally planned in between Man From UNCLE sequels.

 

People lie. Numbers never lie.

 

just because the movies weren’t well received doesn’t mean the actor wasn’t. Even some people who didn’t like the directions his movie taken liked Cavill in the role and would be excited to see him return. Similar to how even people who didn’t like the ASM movies were excited for Garfield’s return in NWH and even calling for an ASM3. 
 

 

MoS also I get the impression has gained some appreciation over time. BvS yeah that’s still overall a mess. Would have been better overall if they had just done a MoS sequel with some course correction instead of jumping to BvS

[John Marston]

2 hours ago, grim22 said:

MoS is the single most influential CBM of the past decade in that respect.

 

Look at all the CBMs which came after it - every single one had it's climax in a non-descript completely abandoned location or had a lot of dialogue implying locations are empty or evacuated (see: Guardians 1, BvS, way too many things in Ultron). All major fights and setpieces are all set such that there will be no civilians ever put in danger.

 

It swung everything to an extreme thanks to online complaining. No one wants to stop a movie to try and deal with fallouts of superhero battles to appease online fans, so they just decided to stop making it an issue with CYA lines and settings.

 

 

also the babysitter’s death in JW. Probably off blockbusters from doing anything that could be considered “mean spirited”

Edited October 9, 2022 by John Marston