The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power | Amazon | September 2, 2022

[Valonqar]

15 hours ago, FilmFincher said:

 

Not to start diving into comparisons again but we had that Ep.3 of HOTD which gave us a big battle early on. While it was pretty to look at, I don't think I could have had less investment from a narrative/character perspective. And I understand in the grand scheme of HOTD it's just a stepping stone but I'm glad Rings of Power didn't blow it's load early to placate those looking for some zest and instead saved it for a moment where you're actually invested in everything that's happening. 

 

 

 

HotD didn't blow any load early. People watch HotD for interesting characters, sex and shocking moments 2 out of 3 things that G rated show like ROP can't have by default of its rating. Like GOT, it doesn't depend on a big batle or two per season to wake audience up from stupor. There's more going on in a wedding scene than in 5 episodes of some comparable fantasy shows. Also, characters are compelling and actors do a bang on job. Raenyra and Alicent (young and adult), Daemon, Viserys, Otto, Criston Cole, children (Aegon, Aemond, etc) are all instantly memorable.

 

But anyway, Uncle Benjen's performance as Adar belongs in GOT universe for its high quality. Not surprising that a GOT alumni would be a standout for GOT shows really care about casting. Charlie Vickers who plays Halbrand is also very good and improves Morf's acting. Never seen him in anything but should get a career boost from this. It doesn't hurt he's the handsomest guy on the show by a landslide. They cast really goofy looking male Elves for some reason. Celegrandma (thank you, Ozy!), Constipated Don Lemon, Elrond the Shitsmeller, Bank Manager Gil-Galad (just give him a tie and he's good to go) are so ridiculous, don't cut the Fair Folk mustard and are easily mogged by freakin humans (Elendil and Isuldur) not to mention secret Maiar (Halbrand). Someone on the casting team clearly hates Elves. 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Valonqar

[Elessar]

2 hours ago, Valonqar said:

 

HotD didn't blow any load early. People watch HotD for interesting characters, sex and shocking moments 2 out of 3 things that G rated show like ROP can't have by default of its rating. Like GOT, it doesn't depend on a big batle or two per season to wake audience up from stupor. There's more going on in a wedding scene than in 5 episodes of some comparable fantasy shows. Also, characters are compelling and actors do a bang on job. Raenyra and Alicent (young and adult), Daemon, Viserys, Otto, Criston Cole, children (Aegon, Aemond, etc) are all instantly memorable.

 

Didn't want to bring up GoT but oh well. Here's my confession of the day, i never finished GoT. I tried multiple times and the farthest i got is season 3. Which is strange because the show has all the stuff i like. But for some reason i wasn't invested in the proceedings and / or characters as much. That said, i intend to go through it again and this time i "will" make it all the way to the end. I'm just waiting for a good deal for the 4k set.

[Valonqar]

Just now, Elessar said:

 

Didn't want to bring up GoT but oh well. Here's my confession of the day, i never finished GoT. I tried multiple times and the farthest i got is season 3. Which is strange because the show has all the stuff i like. But for some reason i wasn't invested in the proceedings and / or characters as much. That said, i intend to go through it again and this time i "will" make it all the way to the end. I'm just waiting for a good deal for the 4k set.

 

That's perfectly OK. BTW, S1-4 are the best. Decline started in S5 and continued to the end. There were great individual episodes (Hardhome, Battle of the Bastards, Winds of Winter, Spoils of War to a degree) but overall big drop. 

[Liiviig 1998]

3 hours ago, Valonqar said:

 

HotD didn't blow any load early. People watch HotD for interesting characters, sex and shocking moments 2 out of 3 things that G rated show like ROP can't have by default of its rating. Like GOT, it doesn't depend on a big batle or two per season to wake audience up from stupor. There's more going on in a wedding scene than in 5 episodes of some comparable fantasy shows. Also, characters are compelling and actors do a bang on job. Raenyra and Alicent (young and adult), Daemon, Viserys, Otto, Criston Cole, children (Aegon, Aemond, etc) are all instantly memorable.

 

But anyway, Uncle Benjen's performance as Adar belongs in GOT universe for its high quality. Not surprising that a GOT alumni would be a standout for GOT shows really care about casting. Charlie Vickers who plays Halbrand is also very good and improves Morf's acting. Never seen him in anything but should get a career boost from this. It doesn't hurt he's the handsomest guy on the show by a landslide. They cast really goofy looking male Elves for some reason. Celegrandma (thank you, Ozy!), Constipated Don Lemon, Elrond the Shitsmeller, Bank Manager Gil-Galad (just give him a tie and he's good to go) are so ridiculous, don't cut the Fair Folk mustard and are easily mogged by freakin humans (Elendil and Isuldur) not to mention secret Maiar (Halbrand). Someone on the casting team clearly hates Elves. 

Enjoying ROP more than you . But definitely agree on the elves part. Don't have major issues with the casting with the exception of celebrimbor . Just think the writing and costume design department really failed the elves.

 

To think more about it ,this show has quite a lack of elves. We jump from elrond, galadriel ,gil galad , the rest are there for very little of the plot.

 

Atleast numenor feels lived in. You see lots of the human population and can kind of see their way of life.

 

Southlands until the current episode just felt like stand ins for the plot to happen and lead to big action sequence for them to be saved. Current episode gave them more urgency .

 

Scaling of the world in general is still quite lacking.

 

Like in the second episode,we get a beautiful sight of eregion and then just cut straight into a room with elrond and clembribor then jump to khaza dum after which was sort of jarring imo.

 

Contrast that with arrival at numenor which was miles better.

 

 

GOT and PJ trilogy were so good at scaling the world and showing movements of characters from different locations with each distinct in appearence , culture/way of Life.

 

 

 

[Brainbug]

2 hours ago, Elessar said:

 

Didn't want to bring up GoT but oh well. Here's my confession of the day, i never finished GoT. I tried multiple times and the farthest i got is season 3. Which is strange because the show has all the stuff i like. But for some reason i wasn't invested in the proceedings and / or characters as much. That said, i intend to go through it again and this time i "will" make it all the way to the end. I'm just waiting for a good deal for the 4k set.

 

Game of Thrones is an extremely weird show since it ended because Seasons 1 - 4 are some of the best television ever made, Seasons 5 and 6 are an extremely high drop in quality despite some high moments and Season 7 and 8 are pure trash (especially Season 8).

 

I cant recommend the show anymore and if it had to id say to just watch Seasons 1 - 4 and then buy and read the books lol (books are probably my favourite fantasy series).

[Valonqar]

@Brainbug Agreed, watch S1-4 and pretend that's where it ended.

 

@Liiviig 1998 Yes I think that's the problem. The show wants to cover too much at once, so we get all those jumps from this set to that set without enough time to soak it in. It should have started on a smaller scale and added more as it went while phasing some stuff out so not to stretch itself too thin. FOTR is a quest so they journey through all those different lands but it's the same group of people so it isn't like having 9 characters in 9 different lands. And then in TTT, when Fellowship is split, they don't have to go back to some of those lands (Hobbiton, Lothlorien, Khazad Dum) and revisit characters that aren't essential to the story but move forward to new ones (Rohan, Mordor, etc) and characters who become important to the story (exmaple, less Galadriel and Elrond, more Eowyn and Theoden). Likewise ROTK. However, ROP is dealing with all that at once and only now it connected some stories that were running separately. It seems that formula "group works together - group gets split - individual characters have their own adventures - invididual characters reunite" is a better approach (Star Wars OT, Tolkien/Jackson LOTR, GOT). 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Valonqar

[Liiviig 1998]

S1-S4 great 

 

5-6 . Drop in quality but still Good tv.

 

7- generic fantasy tv show with some awesome moments.

 

8- Hot garbage that makes season 7 feel like a masterpiece.

 

Like after the first six seasons . A generic happy ever after ending would have been really disappointing but after S8 ,such an ending would have been better.

 

First two episodes of S8 are not even bad ,they just so meh. This show literally dives of a cliff in 4 episodes . Have never seen a show destroy itself so fast and spectacularily.

 

After HOTD, decided to give the books a go . Half way through the first book and it's excellent. 

 

Love WOT and LOTR books but they are points where they can drag Abit. 

Not this book, Not a chapter feels wasted or bloated . The way GRR martin conveys characters and world building so efficiently without getting to bogged down into alot of description is quite refreshing.

Haven't finished it but this is one of the most efficient books I've read.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Liiviig 1998

[Hatebox]

Quote

You can call this show many things, but not boring.

I’ve only seen episodes 1-4, but they were fucking boring, I can assure you. 
 

I think part of the problem is that it feels like a show that was made to be binged (a polite way of saying there’s no episodic story structure or cliffhangers) but it was released as weekly instalments. I actually prefer weekly episodes, but you have to write the show accordingly. 
 

(Since we’re talking about GoT, the rot on that set in really early. Go back and watch season 5. It’s abysmal.)

 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Hatebox

[James]

I dont understand why these comparisons even exist. LOTR is classic fantasy, good vs evil, built on archetypes.

 

GOT is the exact opposite of archetypes, it tries to show the ugliness of humanity. I watch GOT HOTD because they are entertaining in a way. 
 

But they are not feel good or comfort shows. And they feel small in scale compared to classic good vs evil shows or movies. I watch LOTR because that’s a world that I would actually like to live in and it genuinely makes me happy.

 

They are very very different.

[Valonqar]

The only thing that I'm curious about is whether they are going with Sauron being genuinely done with it but then tempted and pulled back in or with Sauron playing everyone especially Galadriel and being fake af. Cause you can make a case for both. On one side, he couldn't have arranged to be on the raft to intercept swimming Galadriel. That meeting felt fated rather than by design but who knows? And he doesn't appear manipulative so it's Galadriel being a control freak and deciding what's best for everyone including him that has pushed events towards getting him an army to re-conquer South. OTOH, he does agree with her after protesting too much every time so there may be an element of anticipating her moves and pushing her in desired direction by intentional passivity. Like that royal seal or whatever royal thing that he claimed he hasd stolen from a dead man. He didn't show it to her, she found it in his pouch if I remember correctly, but it set off her "you are King you must claim your birthright" pursuit. It could have been a genuine find or he knew she would find it and have reaction that he anticipated. It's hard to pinpoint but it's intriguing. I'd prefer that his feelings for her are genuine cause that's more interesting for complicated relationships always are. Also, this:

 

"Some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West." - Tolkien

 

Analyst: To be fair, this initial phase of repentance is short-lived. Sauron is too ashamed to go on trial and face the consequences for his past crimes, and he runs off to hide in an undisclosed location in Middle-earth. But it still reiterates the fact that even Sauron himself has that glimmer of redemptive hope in him.

 

Tolkien: "But at the beginning of the Second Age he was still beautiful to look at, or could still assume a beautiful visible shape — and was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all 'reformers' who want to hurry up with 'reconstruction' and 'reorganization' are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up."

 

Analyst:

This take on Sauron is fascinating. Tolkien expands on the idea of his semi-authentic repentance, adding that the character isn't fully evil even as he starts the process that ends with his becoming the Dark Lord and the primary villain for such a lengthy period of Middle-earth history. He compares him to reformers and reconstructionists who start with good intentions before sliding into evil over time.

 

Read More: https://www.looper.com/1031338/rings-of-powers-complicated-take-on-sauron-is-firmly-rooted-in-tolkiens-lore/?utm_campaign=clip

 

 

https://www.looper.com/1031338/rings-of-powers-complicated-take-on-sauron-is-firmly-rooted-in-tolkiens-lore/?utm_campaign=clip

 

So it wouldn't be wrong to take a genuine Sauron approach on the show cause it's supported in canon. But we'll see what they decided. What do you think? [feelings for Galadriel] real or fake? 

[4815162342]

2 hours ago, Valonqar said:

The only thing that I'm curious about is whether they are going with Sauron being genuinely done with it but then tempted and pulled back in or with Sauron playing everyone especially Galadriel and being fake af. Cause you can make a case for both. On one side, he couldn't have arranged to be on the raft to intercept swimming Galadriel. That meeting felt fated rather than by design but who knows? And he doesn't appear manipulative so it's Galadriel being a control freak and deciding what's best for everyone including him that has pushed events towards getting him an army to re-conquer South. OTOH, he does agree with her after protesting too much every time so there may be an element of anticipating her moves and pushing her in desired direction by intentional passivity. Like that royal seal or whatever royal thing that he claimed he hasd stolen from a dead man. He didn't show it to her, she found it in his pouch if I remember correctly, but it set off her "you are King you must claim your birthright" pursuit. It could have been a genuine find or he knew she would find it and have reaction that he anticipated. It's hard to pinpoint but it's intriguing. I'd prefer that his feelings for her are genuine cause that's more interesting for complicated relationships always are. Also, this:

 

 

 

 

So it wouldn't be wrong to take a genuine Sauron approach on the show cause it's supported in canon. But we'll see what they decided. What do you think? [feelings for Galadriel] real or fake? 

 

At this point in the season I think the simplest answer is correct: Sauron has not shown up in the show yet.

 

Spoiler

I think Halbrand is going to end up one of the Nazgul, most likely the Witch-King. It'll be a twist in the knife that cuts off any potential relationship with Galadriel.

 

[Valonqar]

Why would they set him up to be a lesser villain if he could be the main one? There's pottery in that she was hunting for him yet he was right under her nose and that she opened up to him of all people. It's more dramatically valid that he's the main bad. Heck, the theme of her arc from what I could see is that her relentless quest made her dark and not unlike her object of pursuit. "Look in the mirror" as Adar said. So to find out that her soulmate is Sauron should be really sobering. 

[4815162342]

1 minute ago, Valonqar said:

Why would they set him up to be a lesser villain if he could be the main one? There's pottery in that she was hunting for him yet he was right under her nose and that she opened up to him of all people. It's more dramatically valid that he's the main bad. Heck, the theme of her arc from what I could see is that her relentless quest made her dark and not unlike her object of pursuit. "Look in the mirror" as Adar said. So to find out that her soulmate is Sauron should be really sobering. 

 

Aside from thumbing an eye into canon that Galadriel's Sauron sense was tingling from the first second he appeared in Middle Earth under a guise, the theory relies on far too many coincidences and logical leaps. It's also comically soap opera.

 

Spoiler

As for why would they set him up to be a "lesser villain", you're ignoring the tragedy angle of it. Halbrand is being built up as a figure to redeem mankind in Middle Earth separate and apart from Numenor and at the apex of bringing Middle Earth Mankind back into the fold, he gets taken in by Annatar and Celebrimbor with promises of ensuring his people never suffer the same hardships again, and falls because of it. And it heightens the tragedy with Galadriel because she warns him not to trust Annatar but in the end his desire to have the power necessary to protect his people causes him to break from Galadriel and then dooms him.

 

It works far better

[Valonqar]

I see your point but there's no Annatar in the story and Adar claiming he killed Sauron only to conveiently ask Halbrand who he was seems like on the nose set up for Adar to out Halbrand as Sauron in the finale. It's really all about clues that they throw in now. Your theory, while valid, depends entirely on Sauron yet appearing as Annatar. OTOH, we have the following:

 

Halbrand applies for a job with the local blacksmith in Numenor

 

Is secretly as strong and good at combat as Galadriel which we learned when he solo'd a group of Numenorean attackers and broke one's arm

 

Uses Sauron phrase ("If I could hold onto that feeling, bind it to my very being") and advised Galadriel to master Numenoreans first which is how he canonically got them to his side

 

Is set up as an Aragorn figure (exiled king struggling with his ancestor's past mistake) yet in a combo with hints above you get the feel that he won't be just that

 

survives the Kraken attack that kills everyone else except Galadriel who is an Elf. Too strange for a mere human.

 

They wouldn't have Adar claim he killed Sauron and then show interest in Halbrand if there was no connection The show isn't subtle at all.

 

So yeah, there are clues. But like I said, it would be a major shock for her to find out she terribly misjudged even if he was honest about wanting to change. Their convo in the woods really sounded honest, IMO. It would be more tragic that way, that chance was there but was missed. We'll see.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Valonqar

[Torontofan]

I think this show is a solid 7.5

Can be much better I think

[Valonqar]

Tolkien writes LOTR. 

 

Fans immediately ship Sam and Frodo.

 

But nooo. Tolkien gives Sam a beard.

 

Fans immediately ship Aragorn and Eowyn.

 

But nooo. Tolkein pulls Arwen out of his ass.

 

Tolkien writes Unfinished Tales.

 

Fans immediately ship Galadriel and Sauron.

 

But nooo. Tolkien gives Galadriel a boring husband that no one likes. 

 

Fortunately, based Bezos corrected the last one. Now my personal canon is that Galadriel jumped off again at the end of LOTR and swam back to be reunited with Sauron/Halbrand. Remember, Sauron wasn't dead, just powerless to take any shape. But the power of love will make him Halbrand again. 

 

It's mainstream. Vanity Fair editor:

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Valonqar

[Elessar]

A lengthy article about the show's genesis, its reception, ratings and an outlook on season 2. I think it's worth your time, even if some of the stuff we have heard before.

 

‘The Rings of Power’ Showrunners Break Silence on Backlash, Sauron and Season 2

Edited October 5, 2022 by Elessar

[Valonqar]

They are fucked if they replace Charlie Vickers after Sauron reveal. He's the breakout and most popular actor by a landslide, he and Morf of course. Also shipping for their characters is blowing up like nobody's business. It's the show's most popular aspect. Is Halbrand Sauraon and Will Galadriel and Halbrand/Sauron fuck? are two the most asked questions.  Reminds me of TFA. Who's Rey's Daddy and Will Rey and Kylo fuck? were 2 most asked questions that even Daisy Ridley commented on. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Valonqar

[Ozymandias]

On 10/1/2022 at 12:02 AM, James said:

You can call this show many things, but not boring. This is how Grace Randolph is saying she falls asleep watching the LOTR movies. Do you use that as an excuse for saying LOTR movies are terrible?

 

I am a huge Tolkien fan (still have a few HOME books to get through, but that’s about it), but this headstrong hate for anything that doesn’t respect Tolkien’s word to the letter is so absurd.

 

The only thing so far that felt contrived was the mithril thing only because it was useless. Otherwise this is a solid show. You can start nitpicking at it, but then again, if you really love Tolkien that much, you could tear apart the PJ movies (and no, I am not saying this show comes anywhere near those movies). Just goes to show how much unnecessary hate is out there.

 

I call it boring and contrived because imo those are far and away my biggest problems with it.  None of the characters are particularly interesting or compelling(except maybe Adar now to a certain extent, a villain...and Durin) with little to no personality or motivations to them.  The main character Galadriel seems to get more problematic & obnoxious with each episode.  I'm not someone who can overlook fundamental flaws in storytelling like characterization and plotting for spectacle, and thats all Rings of Power has is spectacle; some impressive CGI and some great looking wide landscape shots.  I can't even enjoy the costuming(most of them look like shit, ESPECIALLY the armor whereas LOTR and GOT/HOTD have like the best medieval armor/costume designs ever put to film) and the sets just look like actors in overly lit places disconnected from an actual real fantasy world(Numenor scenes are the worst), its so bizarre.

 

And the changes in the PJ trilogy aren't the same type as the stuff in Rings of Power.  Most of the changes made in Jackson trilogy were made for structural, narrative, and pacing purposes.  For example, the Scouring of the Shire simply wouldn't have worked in the movies and replacing the role of Glorfindal with Arwen was fine because it was still in the spirit of Tolkien.  The biggest departures PJ made would probably be the Witch King breaking Gandalf's staff, Aragorn murdering the Mouth of Sauron, and Faramir, but even those are pretty small in the grand scheme of things.  In Rings of Power, if someone told me that Galadriel introduces Sauron to Celebrimbor after they bang in Episode 8, I wouldn't immediately dismiss it out of hand because thats the level of trashiness and difference in approach to the lore Rings of Power is taking compared to Peter Jackson in his LOTR trilogy.

 

PS:  Tell me where is Numenor, for I much desire to see it.

 

 

On 10/1/2022 at 6:24 AM, Brainbug said:

I mean, lets all be honest here. This show - not matter how good or bad it actually is - was always going to receive some extreme hate by a big part of the Internet, simply because a ton of people decided they want to hate it no matter what beforehand. May it be because it isnt that accurate to the Tolkien lore, may it be because some actors are black, may it be because the dialogue, pacing or narrative doesnt come close to Peter Jacksons masterpieces - those people will always find something to criticize and hate because they just want to hate this show.

 

Now im not talking about people who gave it a fair chance and are disappointed; im only referring to those who werent and arent willing to give it an actual fair chance. Speaking just for myself, i think this show so far has been a 7/10 show. It has some logical and narrative issues and the dialogue seems off in a few places, but im still enjoying it. Its never boring to me. Of course it doesnt come close to the LOTR trilogy, but honestly, for me, nothing will ever come close to these Masterpieces. And guess what, even those 3 movies arent loved by everyone.

 

Im just glad we got a LOTR show, because ... well, id rather have this than nothing, especially because its a solid show so far.

 

If you go back and look at the earlier posts in this thread I was cautiously optimistic and defending this show quite a bit against the bad-faith backlash against it(mostly the bigot chudtuber shit) once the Superbowl trailer debuted.  It wasn't until the last month or so before the show came out when marketing ramped up with Amazon dropping 3 full length trailers did I really start to sour on this because the more I saw of it the more I realized what I was likely in for and IMO ended up getting pretty much exactly what I feared... a Middle Earth show that looks and feels like it was made by some ultra hack-for-hire like Alex Kurtzman.

 

If you guys like Rings of Power thats fine, its not like I think anyone is bad person or stupid for liking this show.   To me this feels like the end result of years of successful & highly lucrative corporate factory franchise film-making where art becomes entirely commercialized & producer driven with dingbats-for-hire in the directors chair without any real vision or voice at the helm of the project but rather a hodgepodge of competing ideas governed by market analytics & current year anachronisms(MAGA rally, they tooker jerbs! + writing tailor made for bots & twitter shippers) resulting in a big sloppy inconsistent mess.

 

Other big genre shows airing right now such as Andor and House of the Dragon and only make me feel more confident in my criticisms of the show because you measure this up against those the contrast is stark.  Both of those feel like they were made by by professionals with something to say whereas Rings of Power just feels like...  amateur hour.  I think Erik Kain over Forbes has been doing a decent job at scratching the surface.

 

 

1 hour ago, Elessar said:

A lengthy article about the show's genesis, its reception, ratings and an outlook on season 2. I think it's worth your time, even if some of the stuff we have heard before.

 

‘The Rings of Power’ Showrunners Break Silence on Backlash, Sauron and Season 2

 

“The entire making of this show has been a massive learning experience for everyone involved. We had no idea what we were getting into. No one else did, either.”  

[Brainbug]

@Ozymandias i totally get your points and id say on most i would agree, Compared to House of the Dragon Rings of Power is pretty mediocre, especially in the dialogue department.

 

And as a huge Tolkien fan myself i can understand anyone who dislikes the show because Tolkiens works are so vast, masterfully crafted and one-of-a-kind, that a pretty by-the-numbers fantasy show representing it can leave a sour taste in your mouth. And i also agree that it feels like a typical Hollywood boardroom show/script so far with all the annoyances that come with it.

 

But again, i personally still like it mostly and thats just because im honest with myself and i know that good music, great visuals and engangingly-enough characters are all i need to enjoy a show. I do hope the season finale and later seasons improve, but again, im also just happy that weve got a LOTR show on this scale. As long as it doesnt geht in the truly bad territory for me (like late Game of Thrones), ill ride along with it.