fishstick Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 In TDKR Batman pretty much gets the Frodo ending and goes to the Grey Havens with Catwoman and her leather outfit. Now Frodo has some pretty f'd up shit happen to him. The trauma of the ring (touched by evil)...multiple physical injuries. Hell even Sam cheats on him and marries that woman. That was the real reason Frodo sailed away. He was really disappointed that Sam beared up like Travolta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4815162342 Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) Not really. The main plan was to destroy Gotham. At the end of the day that's what matters. Talia's methods were different and more personal, but it's understandable. If the main plan was to destroy Gotham they would have done it the minute they had Pavel convert the fusion reactor into the neutron bomb. No, Talia and Bane specifically wanted Gotham to try and fend for itself for those 5 months, for people to think they had still had control over their own lives, only for the inevitable explosion to make the concept of hope and self-determination worthless. Ra's al Ghul would have destroyed Gotham in a flash and left the ruins to rebuild themselves. His plan is to shock society into action via catastrophe to fight injustice. Bane and Talia's plan is to psychologically fuck with Gotham's citizens while painting themselves as terrorists out to screw with civilized society. Ra's would never allow such a plan since he sees the League as agents of justice, renewing society through destruction. Talia's just a pissed psychobitch who wants to make Bruce and Gotham suffer for as long as possible before "giving them permission to die." There's no prospect for justice or renewal from their actions. And Ra's is not suicidal or nihilistic. He wore a gas mask in the BB final act for a reason, to not inhale the aerosol. Talia and Bane on the other hand are content to die with Gotham (and force their men to do the same). They're nihilists, not hard-edged vigilantes, and they're content to let themselves expire with her misguided vengeance scheme. Ra's wouldn't take his death personally since he knew Bruce had a clear but respectable philosophical difference and was fighting to save Gotham, not trying to "murder" him like Talia says. He'd consider death a necessary risk for any of his plans. Edited July 24, 2012 by 4815162342 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adm56 Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 So Bane and whatsherface are in cahoots with these guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessie Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Actually it is explained when they say that Bruce Wayne fixed the autopilot in the Bat months prior to the climax of the story. Meaning he was driving the Bat through remote control instead of being in it at the time of the explosion.Yes they did say this however they showed a shot of him sitting in the batwing then straight away showed a shot of the timer with 5 seconds left so he would have still been fucked. If you plan to watch this again look out for it and you will see what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Alfred Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Yes they did say this however they showed a shot of him sitting in the batwing then straight away showed a shot of the timer with 5 seconds left so he would have still been fucked. If you plan to watch this again look out for it and you will see what I mean. We see Bruce then the camera zooms at the countdown. Now it gives you the feeling that he's there, but technically he's never there. Nolan doesn't take everything literally, he doesn't have to show someone's star tattoo five times to get a point across. His stories are huge, so he leaves stuff for the audience's imagination. That's not a plot hole. If he were to tell every single detail the film would be 5 hours long. Do we really need to see how Bruce got back into Gotham? Do we really need to see every event during that five month siege, why can't we jump to final day? Do we really need to get explained how Alfred tracked down Selina's location in the end? Do we really need to see how Bruce jumped out 40 seconds before the detonation when they explain later that the autopilot was fixed?If the main plan was to destroy Gotham they would have done it the minute they had Pavel convert the fusion reactor into the neutron bomb. No, Talia and Bane specifically wanted Gotham to try and fend for itself for those 5 months, for people to think they had still had control over their own lives, only for the inevitable explosion to make the concept of hope and self-determination worthless.Ra's al Ghul would have destroyed Gotham in a flash and left the ruins to rebuild themselves. His plan is to shock society into action via catastrophe to fight injustice. Bane and Talia's plan is to psychologically fuck with Gotham's citizens while painting themselves as terrorists out to screw with civilized society. Ra's would never allow such a plan since he sees the League as agents of justice, renewing society through destruction. Talia's just a pissed psychobitch who wants to make Bruce and Gotham suffer for as long as possible before "giving them permission to die." There's no prospect for justice or renewal from their actions.And Ra's is not suicidal or nihilistic. He wore a gas mask in the BB final act for a reason, to not inhale the aerosol. Talia and Bane on the other hand are content to die with Gotham (and force their men to do the same). They're nihilists, not hard-edged vigilantes, and they're content to let themselves expire with her misguided vengeance scheme. Ra's wouldn't take his death personally since he knew Bruce had a clear but respectable philosophical difference and was fighting to save Gotham, not trying to "murder" him like Talia says. He'd consider death a necessary risk for any of his plans. Good point, but I have never said that they were following Ra's footsteps. They had the same goal with more personal and cruel methods. Bane was an outcast and expelled from the league, so it's clear that he's more of a terrorist than a follower of Ra's. I think we're on the same page, just I'm not sure what is your stand regarding this topic. Me personally prefer Ra's method and motives, but that doesn't make the ones in TDKR look bad. They clearly resonate more with today'as world and that was Nolan's intention IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4815162342 Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) It looks bad in the sense that we trade a high-minded complex character for a single-minded vengeance harpy and her hulking frontman.And their "complex philosophical plan" had more holes in it than the Joker's plans relied on coincidences and luck. Such as trapping the 3,000+ policemen underground. Um...why not kill them? Why let them stay alive for the slim chance they could get out and utterly screw with things? Even if it's due to them extending their quasi-philosophical message to everyone, it's an utterly stupid act. Edited July 24, 2012 by 4815162342 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Alfred Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Well a crime is a crime. Just because it's simple it doesn't make it look bad. I guess the point was to make it less complicated in that sense to avoid comparison to The Joker. We didn't need another high-minded complex character. Talia and Bane were interesting in their own merits anyway. What plot holes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessie Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 We see Bruce then the camera zooms at the countdown. Now it gives you the feeling that he's there, but technically he's never there. Nolan doesn't take everything literally, he doesn't have to show someone's star tattoo five times to get a point across. His stories are huge, so he leaves stuff for the audience's imagination. That's not a plot hole. If he were to tell every single detail the film would be 5 hours long. Do we really need to see how Bruce got back into Gotham? Do we really need to see every event during that five month siege, why can't we jump to final day? Do we really need to get explained how Alfred tracked down Selina's location in the end? Do we really need to see how Bruce jumped out 40 seconds before the detonation when they explain later that the autopilot was fixed?Bruce was still in the batwing whilst he was long gone from the coast line. It does need explaining because it is a cop-out. If they hadn't showed a shot of him in there then it would have been fine, but they did so auto-pilot or no auto-pilot, he was still in his air craft seconds before detonation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bballman24 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I could be wrong but I thought after showing Bruce it cuts back to Blake then the timer. I just figured I didn't need to take the scene literally. I mean this is about the "emotion" not technicalities. If they killed off batman that would've completely wasted the hero cycle/Bruce's arc/theme that was trilogy in the making.Every movie can be taken piece by piece. Why are some people intensifying the scrutiny extensively for this film. I'm not going to call people wrong for criticizing, however, since everyone is entitled to their opinion (unless the argument is pointless). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordmandeep Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I think Nolan is not being fair with that subplot...There is no denying if you watch TDKR once you think the Talia Subplot is silly.I have heard the 2nd time its better because you get to see how she is bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Such as trapping the 3,000+ policemen underground. Um...why not kill them? Why let them stay alive for the slim chance they could get out and utterly screw with things? Even if it's due to them extending their quasi-philosophical message to everyone, it's an utterly stupid act."Your punishment must be more severe" seems to be Bane's motto here, between Wayne and the rest of Gotham. Obviously it becomes the bane of his existence (boom!) but he's more interested in suffering than quick and easy death. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bballman24 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Yeah, talia's actions make more sense (her multiple attempts to get close to Bruce in he last 8 years and in the movie. Her sincerity/altruism like charity to gain trust of people around Bruce as well like fox and the board. It's all for the ultimate betrayal against Bruce and using the clean energy source as a time bomb so that they can give false hope to people then ultimately bomb it when the nuclear decay becomes unstoppable) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Alfred Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 People say that Talia didn't have much screen time and therefore it's not justified for here to be the villain all of a sudden. If you watch it again you clearly see that without her half of the thing Bane did wouldn't have been doable. Also Talia had by far the most act in the film, she did more what Catwoman and Bruce did together, just had less screen time and shorter scenes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordmandeep Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Talia story is okay but I think the actress did not do a good job and she is great actress and did her role well in Inception... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4815162342 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 "Your punishment must be more severe" seems to be Bane's motto here, between Wayne and the rest of Gotham. Obviously it becomes the bane of his existence (boom!) but he's more interested in suffering than quick and easy death.Which is a big reason why the villains' plans have holes (not plot holes Alfred, regular old holes of stupidity). While their plans are consistent with their internal logic and motives, I think that logic and motivation sucks donkey balls mostly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordmandeep Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Yeah and the thing is Loki and Joker plan was just to be bastards and see the world burn but it worked out fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Alfred Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Which is a big reason why the villains' plans have holes (not plot holes Alfred, regular old holes of stupidity). While their plans are consistent with their internal logic and motives, I think that logic and motivation sucks donkey balls mostly. Yes, but it always the case when it comes to villains, isn't it? Most of them have simple plans or donkey balls motivations. If the villain is executed properly, both the motives and the their plan, then another problem occurs. He/she takes over the film from the hero lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4815162342 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) Yes, but it always the case when it comes to villains, isn't it? Most of them have simple plans or donkey balls motivations. If the villain is executed properly, both the motives and the their plan, then another problem occurs. He/she takes over the film from the hero lol Simple plans are fine. Stupid plans aren't. Especially when those plans clash with the character's essence. Nolan did Talia a disservice with her character in the film. As for taking over the film, the best villains almost always do, because they're THAT good. Edited July 25, 2012 by 4815162342 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Yeah and the thing is Loki and Joker plan was just to be bastards and see the world burn but it worked out fine.Loki clearly wanted to rule the world. Joker just wanted to watch it burn. Both are easier to write for (IMHO) than a villain like Bane. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bballman24 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 To be honest, kinda wanted to see joker's (no) plan come to fruition.When the big inmate guy threw the detonator out I was disappointed lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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