Captain America: Winter Soldier (2014)

[Michael Gary Scott]

It was a really good film But it doesn't belong in taking league. Having said that it's the third best MCU.

[baumer]

saw it again today. Still love it. But the plot really makes no sense. Now that I have had a chance to watch it a second time it's really about as convoluted as can be

[4815162342]

 But the plot really makes no sense.

 

Yes it does.

 

It only seems that way because we don't get important backstory info that explains the plot until near the halfway point. Once you lay all the plot points out in chrono order, it makes pretty good sense.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Numbers of House Stark

[baumer]

Yes it does.

 

It only seems that way because we don't get important backstory info that explains the plot until near the halfway point. Once you lay all the plot points out in chrono order, it makes pretty good sense.

 

That's not my point.  

 

My point is that (here's what I gathered) Fury thinks there is a bunch of clandestine stuff going on underneath his nose so he hires so pirates to take over a SHIELD ship.  As it turns out, SHIELD is harboring members of Hydra who have infiltrated their organization and with government money that no one asks questions about, they are building giant ships that are linked by satellite and they can find any person in the world and kill them millions at a time.  Rogers, Banner, Fury and many others are all on this list.  This WMD is okayed so that they can make the world safe.  Sacrifice a few for the greater good.  Also, Hydra worked with SHIELD (although sHIELD didn't know it) and over the years they basically scared people into begging for more security.  And then it went all wrong.  Redford is the kingpin of HYDRA and he did all of this right under Fury's nose.

 

Am I missing anything? 

[baumer]

What's interesting is that TWS has a lot of reference to conspiracy stuff.  

 

The New World Order is mentioned.

Hydra basically insights calamities so that the world begs for more security.

Zola is employed by the American government after WW2.  This is an occurrence that took place after WW2 when the Nazi's were caught.  Many of them were just brought over to the US side and they used their knowledge.

 

It kind of makes me think that there's a lot of Illuminati/conspiracy knowledge in writers Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely's coffers.  

[Plain Old Tele]

It's basic conspiracy 101 stuff. Always fun. I did like the Operation Paperclip reference -- it was a nice tie-in to actual history.And the heli-carriers weren't HYDRA-only. Fury obviously agreed (initially) with that more militant attitude, the guns were just turned against him.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Telemachos

[Subzero]

What's interesting is that TWS has a lot of reference to conspiracy stuff.  

 

The New World Order is mentioned.

Hydra basically insights calamities so that the world begs for more security.

Zola is employed by the American government after WW2.  This is an occurrence that took place after WW2 when the Nazi's were caught.  Many of them were just brought over to the US side and they used their knowledge.

 

It kind of makes me think that there's a lot of Illuminati/conspiracy knowledge in writers Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely's coffers.  

You brought up a good point. It's the basic for which the foudation of this country was build upon and perhaps maybe till this day.

[baumer]

It's basic conspiracy 101 stuff. Always fun. I did like the Operation Paperclip reference -- it was a nice tie-in to actual history.And the heli-carriers weren't HYDRA-only. Fury obviously agreed (initially) with that more militant attitude, the guns were just turned against him.

 

Fury's always been 100% SHIELD.  He was right till then end, not believing that all the transgressions were going on while he was on watch.  He had to be told not only by Rogers but by Maria Hill that it was time to burn it all down, before he would agree to it.  So his allegiance to the project makes sense.

[TheMovieman]

Entertaining and easily one of the best solo MCU movies, second behind IM1. But it does lag some in the second act and the action-fest at the end felt a bit off, but still it's a good, solid sequel especially considering the first was a chore to even get through. I won't put this on the same pedistal of great comic movies (gold standard for me are TDK, Spider-Man 2 and The Avengers) but it's a fine entry.

 

****/***** (B+, 7.9/10, 3.25/4)

[Dark Jedi Master 007]

What's interesting is that TWS has a lot of reference to conspiracy stuff.  

 

The New World Order is mentioned.

Hydra basically insights calamities so that the world begs for more security.

Zola is employed by the American government after WW2.  This is an occurrence that took place after WW2 when the Nazi's were caught.  Many of them were just brought over to the US side and they used their knowledge.

 

It kind of makes me think that there's a lot of Illuminati/conspiracy knowledge in writers Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely's coffers.  

Finally, some real proof of the illuminati.

[4815162342]

That's not my point. My point is that (here's what I gathered) Fury thinks there is a bunch of clandestine stuff going on underneath his nose so he hires so pirates to take over a SHIELD ship.  As it turns out, SHIELD is harboring members of Hydra who have infiltrated their organization and with government money that no one asks questions about, they are building giant ships that are linked by satellite and they can find any person in the world and kill them millions at a time.  Rogers, Banner, Fury and many others are all on this list.  This WMD is okayed so that they can make the world safe.  Sacrifice a few for the greater good.  Also, Hydra worked with SHIELD (although sHIELD didn't know it) and over the years they basically scared people into begging for more security.  And then it went all wrong.  Redford is the kingpin of HYDRA and he did all of this right under Fury's nose. Am I missing anything?

A few minor details.That's not convoluted and neither does it not make sense. It's a standard conspiracy plot of the heroes learning more and more details as the story progresses about how the organization they work for has been corrupted.How is it convoluted? How does it not make sense?

[Plain Old Tele]

Fury's always been 100% SHIELD.  He was right till then end, not believing that all the transgressions were going on while he was on watch.  He had to be told not only by Rogers but by Maria Hill that it was time to burn it all down, before he would agree to it.  So his allegiance to the project makes sense.

Oh sure, Fury is 100% SHIELD, I meant philosophically, he was somewhat militant in terms of pursuing threats (enough so he agreed with the project concept, just not the execution).

[DeeCee]

In Fury's mind the 3 helicarriers are just super advanced drone systems that the US is using right now.

[Sam]

With the 2 Captain America movies, and Pain and Gain, Markus and McFeely certainly love those American-themed movies, huh?

[4815162342]

Pretty much. The Project Insight Carriers are giant super hovering aircraft carriers that also carry drones and long-range air-to-ground missiles as well as old school flak cannons and naval bombardment cannons.They're essentially the implementation of modern combined-arms warfare into a single giant beast.

[baumer]

A few minor details.That's not convoluted and neither does it not make sense. It's a standard conspiracy plot of the heroes learning more and more details as the story progresses about how the organization they work for has been corrupted.How is it convoluted? How does it not make sense?

 

Well, it makes sense, I retract that.  But I had to see it twice to put all the pieces together.  I guess I'm a little slow.

[Dark Jedi Master 007]

Perhaps every part of the story makes sense, but they could have done a better job presenting it. Like, for example, until you reminded me that Zola had explained that Hydra infiltrated Nazi Germany, that point escaped me. Now, I remember it, but I'm pretty sure they only had one line on that. They could have maybe not thrown so much info at us in such a short stretch. Zola's conversation in particular seemed too exposition-heavy, and then before we could process everything he said, a huge missile was thrown at our heroes and Zola literally goes "I was stalling," ending our desire to understand what he was talking about, and instead moving us along to a big explosion.Again, though, I really liked the movie, so whatever. 

[4815162342]

He never says it outright, but considering that the Nazis were all about racial purity and that never creeped into Red Skull's agenda or Pierce's at all, it leads me to think that HYDRA, while a part of the Nazi science and war apparatus, had its own agenda and was content to work within the Nazi system (I recall one scene from early in Cap 1 where Red Skull is dismissive of Hitler's plans [it's also a shoutout to Raiders of the Lost Ark]) in order to achieve its own goals of enforced security and stability for all.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Numbers of House Stark

[Sam]

For all the early talks of this movie being Avengers 1.5, it's actually a very natural follow-up to The First Avenger. Tying up some loose ends in that movie pretty nicely.

[Adm56]

I think I would have enjoyed the evil scheme of Hydra more if they would have ratcheted it down just a notch. There are many more subtle ways of showing an evil organization wanting to gain control over their fellow men.  The idea of three 'bullet with your name on it helicarriers that can find you and kill you anywhere' is just a bit cheesy and is awfully close to Cerebro (sp?) being modified to kill people in X2.