Classic Conversation Thread

[filmlover]

Just now, Lordmandeep said:

 

I think that will change over time as more female directors direct more mainstream films. 

 

Partially Nude scene in Wonder Women of Chris Pine is an example,

Yeah, but scenes like that have been present in movies even by male directors since the creation of movies. I'm talking the way Michael Bay filmed Megan Fox in the second Transformers movie.

[Lordmandeep]

10 minutes ago, filmlover said:

Yeah, but scenes like that have been present in movies even by male directors since the creation of movies. I'm talking the way Michael Bay filmed Megan Fox in the second Transformers movie.

 

 

Its a fine balance really, it worked well Transformers 1 but TF2 it sort of become a problem. 

 

I think you can go back the infamous Car hood scene in Transformers 1.

 

Such scenes can easily be gratuitous or frankly become a scene seared into the minds of tens of millions of guys in the 2000's. 

 

 

I think Wonder Woman was perhaps one of the better examples in blockbuster films that sexualized its characters to be appealing to audiences but did not make it gratuitous. 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Lordmandeep

[The Panda]

1 hour ago, Cmasterclay said:

Yeesh, this place sometimes feels like it is slowly turning into Men's Rights Activist Theory. Every single topic is pretty much turning into a bunch of people shitting on the MeToo movement and finding ways to excuse people accused of sexual assault. You go into the fucking Star is Born topic and there's a bunch of people talking about how MeToo is ruining Hollywood. I respect that there is absolutely some real complexity to this issue, but it seems that people are willing to excuse a heck of a lot to feel comfortable. The main Weinstein thread is particularly icky. 

I’m annoyed at dismissal of the movement, but I also think it’s fair to acknowledge that not all of these cases are equal and shouldn’t be treated as such.

 

This Franco case is not the same as Weinstein or Spacey for example.  Although some of the more recent Franco allegations are troubling, at first it looked mild.

 

I don’t want a movement to lose credibility because they go after everyone with any kind allegation.  Like when there’s an allegation that Franco had an actress do a nude scene and that it was sexual harassment, that’s a little ridiculous if she knew about that before going in.

[AniNate]

I guess Hollywood would rather people complain about not enough sex than nonconsensual sex

[Barnack]

42 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

I think in my eyes she is a bit tainted because Weinstein behaviour was rather well known in the Hollywood Insider circles and two of them worked together and many others who worked closely with Weinstein have been tainted as well. 

 

I think in a counter intuitive way the bigger name you were, the older you were in the 90s, the closer you were to Weinstein made it more probable to not know about it.

 

Jane Fonda said she learned about it just one year before the rest of the world for example (she could be lying obviously), when one of the Weinstein rape victim talked to her about it, just before going to the press. I think the step for a victim to talk to a really big name that personally know Weinstein is a really big step that they probably didn't do, for reason similar of why they didn't go on record to the press.

 

When people saying they knew so they cannot believe that someone bigger than them didn't have it all wrong, when they talk about how they heard about it: acting school teacher warning, other actress during the audition of pilot season talking about it, during parties, etc... all situation that would have never occur to Judy Dench or Streep, a young actress that would have heard that Weinstein is dangerous would have never felt the need to tell Streep or Dench to protect them and telling them would have been a really big deal, will they confront him about it, will they say who told them during the argument, etc... ?

 

The other way people said the knew but didn't was the indirect rumors mills, and well every people that have been long enough in the business had rumors about themselves they knew for a fact were false and probably just stopped believe all of those all together, having in general better sources anyway.

 

John Stewart explanation about why he didn't knew about Louis CK when random nobodies on the Internet seamed to know make a lot of sense.

 

Has for working closely with him, that is also to be taken for a grain of salt, Harvey didn't show on set on every movie they distributed are were often a distributor not involved into the creative process, even more so with just actors. It is not like a director.

[Goffe]

Justice League is still in theaters here and Star Wars is already gone. Crazy.

[Barnack]

21 minutes ago, New Year New Panda said:

I don’t want a movement to lose credibility because they go after everyone with any kind allegation.  Like when there’s an allegation that Franco had an actress do a nude scene and that it was sexual harassment, that’s a little ridiculous if she knew about that before going in.

I think the issue here is using twitter....

 

From what I rapidly understood the issue was not talked/improvised element that happened during the nude scene (something that would have never happened on an union shoot were those thing are very detailed to what will be seen on camera in details, that why the $100 was mentioned), not the fact that nudity occurred during it.

 

But because it is only a small tweet that goes around without any details, it does indeed sound ridiculous.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Barnack

[The Panda]

3 minutes ago, Barnack said:

I think the issue here is using twitter....

 

From what I rapidly understood the issue was not talked/improvised element that happened during the nude scene (something that would have never happened on an union shoot were those think are very detailed to what will be seen on camera in details, that why the $100 was mentioned), not the fact that nudity occurred during it.

 

But because it is only a small twit that goes around without any details, it does indeed sound ridiculous.

I dont think Twitter is the best place to make allegations either.  Not to dismiss people who use twitter, but go to a press source or even law enforcement if something really bad happened.  

 

Now, maybe nobody would take them up on their story so they used Twitter, but it still just rubs off as not being legitimate if it comes in a tweet form.  

[Barnack]

4 minutes ago, New Year New Panda said:

I dont think Twitter is the best place to make allegations either.  Not to dismiss people who use twitter, but go to a press source or even law enforcement if something really bad happened.  

 

Now, maybe nobody would take them up on their story so they used Twitter, but it still just rubs off as not being legitimate if it comes in a tweet form.  

At least a blog entry with a tweet pointing to it (or it is maybe just maybe that is not able to follow a twitter "thread" the order and who is talking to who make no sense to me on this)

[The Panda]

11 minutes ago, Barnack said:

 

I think in a counter intuitive way the bigger name you were, the older you were in the 90s, the closer you were to Weinstein made it more probable to not know about it.

 

Jane Fonda said she learned about it just one year before the rest of the world for example (she could be lying obviously), when one of the Weinstein rape victim talked to her about it, just before going to the press. I think the step for a victim to talk to a really big name that personally know Weinstein is a really big step that they probably didn't do, for reason similar of why they didn't go on record to the press.

 

When people saying they knew so they cannot believe that someone bigger than them didn't have it all wrong, when they talk about how they heard about it: acting school teacher warning, other actress during the audition of pilot season talking about it, during parties, etc... all situation that would have never occur to Judy Dench or Streep, a young actress that would have heard that Weinstein is dangerous would have never felt the need to tell Streep or Dench to protect them and telling them would have been a really big deal, will they confront him about it, will they say who told them during the argument, etc... ?

 

The other way people said the knew but didn't was the indirect rumors mills, and well every people that have been long enough in the business had rumors about themselves they knew for a fact were false and probably just stopped believe all of those all together, having in general better sources anyway.

 

John Stewart explanation about why he didn't knew about Louis CK when random nobodies on the Internet seamed to know make a lot of sense.

 

Has for working closely with him, that is also to be taken for a grain of salt, Harvey didn't show on set on every movie they distributed are were often a distributor not involved into the creative process, even more so with just actors. It is not like a director.

Yeah, I think it’s pretty believable that big names like Streep and Dench wouldn’t know.  Weinstein would be more cognitive about hiding his behavior from them, and any warnings about Weinstein were definitely not broadcasted.  Younger and newer actresses wouldn’t have Dench’s or Streep’s ear to let them know, Not would it cross their minds to let them know had they had the chance to tell them.

 

Think about it smaller scale.  If a husband is cheating consistently on his wife, people closer to him or her (or people higher up) he’s less likely to tell and more likely to hide his behavior so it doesn’t get out.  He’ll be less careful around people with loose to no connections to him or his wife.

[Barnack]

9 minutes ago, New Year New Panda said:

Think about it smaller scale.  If a husband is cheating consistently on his wife, people closer to him or her (or people higher up) he’s less likely to tell and more likely to hide his behavior so it doesn’t get out.  He’ll be less careful around people with loose to no connections to him or his wife.

And people would more freely talk about it to people not close to the husband, but talking about that rumor to is best friend or is family member's, would be a really big deal and something they would not necessarily do. You could have a situation with a lot of people have heard the rumors except people really close to the guy or the wife.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Barnack

[AniNate]

Usually it is harder to expose someone's crimes if you're close to them. If someone I loved admitted that they killed someone, I wouldn't be so quick to turn them in for it. It's human nature to want to protect your social circle, regardless of what deeds they committed.

[The Panda]

1 minute ago, Barnack said:

And people would more freely talk about it to people not close to the husband, but talking about that rumor to is best friend or is family member's, would be a really big deal and something they would necessarily do. You could have a situation with a lot of people have heard the rumors except people really close to the guy or the wife.

Exactly, it’s one of those reasons you may not hear about a rumor that’s about you or somebody you’re close to until really late-Game.

 

Ive seen a line of attack against Oprah and Streep for having close relations with Weinstein for quite some time, but I highly doubt they actually were aware of his behavior based on the nature of how rumor mills work.

[That One Girl]

Watching The Foreigner right now.  30 year old Katie Leung plays a teenager.

[DAR]

There was an explosion here near a factory and a mobile home area.   They don't know if it generated in the factory or the mobile home.   If it is the latter my mind immediately goes to someone was cooking meth

[Kraken]

13 hours ago, filmlover said:

Watch it get cancelled before filming starts. Poor Channing, he's been attached to that project for so long (and been scarcely on screen the past two years - three movies and two of them, Hail Caesar and Kingsman 2, he was barely even in).

Lol. You were sooo right

[Webslinger]

3 hours ago, Cmasterclay said:

Yeesh, this place sometimes feels like it is slowly turning into Men's Rights Activist Theory. Every single topic is pretty much turning into a bunch of people shitting on the MeToo movement and finding ways to excuse people accused of sexual assault. You go into the fucking Star is Born topic and there's a bunch of people talking about how MeToo is ruining Hollywood. I respect that there is absolutely some real complexity to this issue, but it seems that people are willing to excuse a heck of a lot to feel comfortable. The main Weinstein thread is particularly icky. 

I've avoided those threads, so I guess ignorance really is bliss.

 

The tricky issue with men and MeToo reflects the tricky issue with men and feminism in general: it requires a change in thinking and a corresponding change in action. No matter how much of a "nice guy" you are, you have to look very hard and very honestly at how you have either consciously or subconsciously played into sexist viewpoints and/or actions, acknowledge that you have some work to do, and then actually do it.

 

I keep hearing guys saying stuff like "Oh, you can't say anything about women anymore" and my immediate response is: Then actually treat women like human beings, not objects. Listen, take discussion of gender gaps seriously, listen, refrain from victim-blaming, listen, think for two seconds whether you'd find a comment about a woman offensive if someone made it about you (or to your wife, girlfriend, daughter, etc.), listen, stop assuming that gender roles are absolute (or even necessary), and - what's the last one? Oh, right - listen.

 

/rant

[Cmasterclay]

2 minutes ago, Webslinger said:

I've avoided those threads, so I guess ignorance really is bliss.

 

The tricky issue with men and MeToo reflects the tricky issue with men and feminism in general: it requires a change in thinking and a corresponding change in action. No matter how much of a "nice guy" you are, you have to look very hard and very honestly at how you have either consciously or subconsciously played into sexist viewpoints and/or actions, acknowledge that you have some work to do, and then actually do it.

 

I keep hearing guys saying stuff like "Oh, you can't say anything about women anymore" and my immediate response is: Then actually treat women like human beings, not objects. Listen, take discussion of gender gaps seriously, listen, refrain from victim-blaming, listen, think for two seconds whether you'd find a comment about a woman offensive if someone made it about you (or to your wife, girlfriend, daughter, etc.), listen, stop assuming that gender roles are absolute (or even necessary), and - what's the last one? Oh, right - listen.

 

/rant

This is a terrific post. It's the same problem across the whole "anti-PC" crusade. It's always "this isn't offensive!" or "this doesn't matter!" It's not offensive to YOU. It doesn't matter to YOU. It's not just an abdication of responsibility to be better. It's an abdication of any ability to feel empathy and put yourself in others shoes. People refuse to step back and consider the lived experiences of others. It's one of the deepest problems with our world. People don't care enough about others to change anything about yourself. 

 

I've reflected back on my own behavior because of the MeToo movement. It's a good thing. I've never assaulted or harassed anyone, but there's times where I've been open and frank about sex/things related to in ways I shouldn't have been, thinking I was just being liberal and edgy when now I can see how it might make people uncomfortable. I've sexted (consensually) before, but I can see times when maybe I was too aggressive or pushy, or conversely when I didn't respond well enough to someone being too aggressive with me. And even though I've never really made sexual come ons or anything, I've slid into my share of DMs/texts or tried to talk with the intention of courting to girls I knew but had no reason to believe they had reasons to think of me as anything more than a friend. I should have considered them not as potential partners, but as friends or people I didn't know well enough. I'm trying to break all those habits. That's a good thing. That's what we all should be doing. Every man has some behavior worth changing and apologizing for. 

[That One Girl]

14 hours ago, That One Guy said:

Unfortunately, there’s still 13 months until a Verbinski film graces the big screen.

 

14 hours later...

[AniNate]

My utter lack of social skills in school were probably a blessing in disguise. I never understood the appeal of pornography and the hypersexualized imagery of women as a teenager.