I am become death: BOT's Top 30 Tragedies of All-Time - Accepting Lists until the 13th

[Ipickthiswhiterose]

14 hours ago, TalismanRing said:

I don't believe that a tragedy requires doubling down on one's flaws, mistakes or bad actions.  The flaw existing and then the tragedy stemming from that is enough.   It's what makes it tragic.  Someone flawed continuing to make mistakes, doubling down on their actions and never even trying to steer away from them (even if it means making new mistakes) and then falling is not tragic - it's comeuppance.  Otherwise every villain story would be a tragedy and they're not.

 

So Othello, Macbeth, King Lear, Hamlet, Titus Andronicus, Medea, Oedipus, Electra, etc that follow this format are all not tragedies? Or all of the examples the OP gave (other than West Side Story which I'll get back to later) that also follow that format? How can one watch Uncut Gems and not perceive that as someone making the flaw over and over again and it being a version of comeuppance despite how invested we become? Parasite shows exactly the notion of starting with one mistake (lie) and then doubling and doubling down on it. 

 

Having the flaw and it manifest multiple times is probably what I mean. But yes, tragedy IS comeuppance - and relatively deserved comeuppance (at least *dramatically* deserved comeuppance even if not literal) at that.

 

Villains don't have single fatal flaws, they have several and in many cases are knowingly villainous (which removes the possibility of tragedy altogether) and are generally too omniscient to be tragic. And anyway in some cases stories that centre the villain are indeed tragedies - hence Macbeth who is more villainous than he is heroic but that doesn't make the story any less of a tragedy.

 

Categorisation convos are a cul de sac, of course they are, but I do find them enjoyable.

[abracadabra1998]

FYC:

 

 

(Bicycle Thieves in English). This movie absolutely fucked me up and was the first one that came to my head. Hoping it fits the definition

[Kalo]

May update and not %100 sure they all qualify but here is a top 15

 

1. Revenge of the Sith
2. Sunset Boulevard
3. Requiem for a Dream
4. Uncut Gems
5. American History X
6. Oppenheimer 
7. Parasite 
8. Sauvage (2018)
9. Fox and his Friends 
10. The Power of the Dog
11. Babylon
12. Rebel Without a Cause
13. The VVItch 
14. Into the Wild (2007)
15. The Dreamers

[Ipickthiswhiterose]

On 9/6/2023 at 8:04 PM, Kalo said:

Does Brokeback Mountain and Call me by your name Qualify? 

 

Does a Clockwork Orange? (although the character may be too evil to be considered)

 

 

 

Just because nobody else has answered I'll give my perspective...

 

I think Clockwork Orange is the easiest of these to answer. It's Dystopian Fiction which IMO is its own genre and tends to end unhappily by its nature. Since the Dystopia itself is the backdrop, the film is about a society, systems and ideas more than the protagonist, even if we follow their journey.

 

If Clockwork Orange is a tragedy then Brazil, Twelve Monkeys, Moon, Dark City and, of course, 1984 are all tragedies. 

 

Brokeback and CMBYN is where I think there's just a grey area between 'tragedy' and 'sad film'. For me, both films are just too winding and involve too many complex, layered choices that are made for a variety of reasons by an array of characters rather than a single flaw or element to count as tragedy. But equally I understand that people who have a looser definition would include them. 

 

 

[The Panda]

Let's update the deadline to October 8th!

[SLAM!]

Jill Chamberlain on Tragedy…

 

You’re gonna love this one:

 

Jill Chamberlain wrote a book on screenwriting called The Nutshell Technique where she talks about the simple secret to success in screenwriting, which is really the “telling of a story.” She states that many beginners don’t find success out of the gate because they aren’t telling a story with a narrative (go figure). Not every movie that gets made “tells a story,” but many of the ones we love tells stories that stick with us for life. I recommend this book for anyone who wants to write screenplays.

 

So her model for comedies is “protagonist’s journey from flaw to strength.” She fits Frozen into her model for comedy because Anna starts out as a selfish character and learns to become selfless over the course of the film, even sacrificing herself to save Elsa at the end. Then she references Silver Linings Playbook as well because the guy Bradley Cooper plays can’t control his emotions, and he learns to control his emotions over the course of the story.

 

So by her model, in a tragedy (and I will use her The Social Network example), the character has a flaw (Mark’s hubris), and there’s a proposed strength that they *should be moving toward* (humility), and the character just doesn’t move toward that and worsens the flaw. So Mark gains the world when Facebook grows, but he fails to be humble and betrays Eduardo, so at the end, he’s a billionaire, but he’s trying to friend request the girl Rooney Mara played at the beginning, clicking refresh, and refresh, and refresh. Becoming a billionaire *should* be a happy ending, but what did Mark really gain? So I would also call The Favourite a tragedy for similar reasons. Abigail becomes the queen’s right hand woman, but was getting what she wanted really worth it? When the answer’s “it wasn’t worth it in the end,” that’s how you know the story’s tragic.

 

Now everyone’s voting for The Social Network, sorry not sorry 😅 
 

Also, Don’t Forget Film Noir.

 

In the 40s and 50s, it was popular for the movies to say that a protagonist will not win if they’re caught up in a life of crime and of sin because crime doesn’t pay. And they made many movies where the characters fail to learn their lesson and they have a tragic downfall. I saw many of these in film school and they’re all great examples of tragedy. I will post posters of film noirs that I’ll vote for if I send a list:

 

 

 

[Jake Gittes]

1.      Barry Lyndon

2.      Heat

3.      Mulholland Dr.

4.      Chinatown

5.      Vertigo

6.      Memento

7.      Glengarry Glen Ross

8.      Reservoir Dogs

9.      Irreversible

10.  Lawrence of Arabia

11.  Blue Collar

12.  The Ascent

13.  The Fly

14.  There Will Be Blood

15.  Heavenly Creatures

16.  Once Upon a Time in America

17.  Five Easy Pieces

18.  A Streetcar Named Desire

19.  Day of Wrath

20.  The Tragedy of Macbeth (1971)

21.  The Godfather

22.  The Godfather Part II

23.  The Prestige

24.  Miller’s Crossing

25.  The Man Who Wasn’t There

26.  The Searchers

27.  The Magnificent Ambersons

28.  Citizen Kane

29.  Good Time

30.  The Irishman

[The Panda]

Sorry if you tried to send something and my inbox was full. I went ahead and cleared it!

[lorddemaxus]

I saw Remains of the Day recently. Should end up somewhere on my list. A buncha other films that spring to my mind that I haven't seen listed (not ordered)

 

La Dolce Vita

They Live By Night

Million Dollar Baby

Dil Se

The Age of Innocence

AI

Oldboy

25th Hour

Monsieur Verdoux

Ran

American Sniper

We Own the Night

The Immigrant

The Red Shoes

Bullet in the Head

A Perfect World

The Yards

Two Lovers

The Counselor

Nixon

Edited October 5, 2023 by lorddemaxus

[TalismanRing]

1. Laurence of Arabia [1962]
2. Wuthering Heights [1939]
3. A Star Is Born [1954]
4. Citizen Kane [1939]
5. The Godfather II [1974]
6. The Searchers [1956]
7. Network [1976]
8. Ace in The Hole [1951]
9. West Side Story [1962]
10. Lonely Are The Brave [1962]
11. The Age of Innocence [1993]
12. Sweet Smell of Success [1957]
13. Chinatown [1974]
14. Elmer Gantry [1960]
15. A Place In The Sun [1951]
16. The Third Man [1949]
17. Ran [1986]
18. Odd Man Out [1947]
19. The Remains of the Day [1993]
20. Jules and Jim [1962]
21. The Informer [1935]

22. The Magnificent Ambersons

23. No Country for Old Men [2007]

24. Parasite [2019]
25. A Streetcar Named Desire [1951]
26. Sophie's Choice [1982]
27. The Servant [1963]
28. One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest [1975]
29. Of Mice and Men [1939]
30. Vertigo [1958]

[Fancyarcher]

Think I'm about good to go.

 

1. Ace in the Hole
2. The Music Room
3. Bicycle Thieves 
4. Schindler’s List 
5. Network 
6. Citizen Kane
7. Oldboy 
8. The Godfather Part II
9. Five Easy Pieces 
10. 25th Hour
11. Ran 
12. Day of Wrath 
13. Elmer Gantry
14. Vertigo 
15. Lawrence of Arabia 
16. The Age of Innocence 
17. Katyn
18. Blue Collar 
19. Chinatown 
20. Lonely Are the Brave 
21. Sweet Smell of Success 
22. Sunset Boulevard 
23. Throne of Blood 
24. The Ascent 
25. The Third Man 
26. The Prestige
27. United 93
28. Parasite 
29. The Fallout (2020)
30. Of Men and Mice (1939)

[Tower]

1	American History X	1998
2	Lawrence Of Arabia	1962
3	Memento	2000
4	Vertigo	1958
5	Ace In The Hole	1951
6	The Banshees Of Inisherin	2022
7	Sunset Boulevard	1950
8	Parasite	2019
9	Grave of the Fireflies	1988
10	The Fly	1986
11	One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest	1975
12	Miller's Crossing	1990
13	Heat	1995
14	Oppenheimer	2023
15	Good Time	2017
16	A Streetcar Named Desire	1951
17	Ford V Ferrari	2019
18	The Northman	2022
19	Tunes Of Glory	1960
20	Promising Young Woman	2020
21	Sweet Smell Of Success	1957
22	Network	1976
23	Barry Lyndon	1975
24	Ran	1985
25	25th Hour	2002
26	The Red Shoes	1948
27	The Third Man	1949
28	Of Mice And Men	1939
29	Million Dollar Baby	2004
30	The Age Of Innocence	1993

[Ipickthiswhiterose]

If I'm not too late:

 

1.       Barry Lyndon

2.       Lawrence of Arabia

3.       Ran

4.       Candyman

5.       Double Idemnity

6.       Parasite

7.       Sunset Boulevard

8.        La Strada

9.       The Passenger (Antonioni)

10.   Sweet Smell of Success

11.   Don’t Look Now

12.   A Town Without Pity

13.   Bicycle Thieves

14.   Five Easy Pieces

15.   Chinatown

16.   The Man Who Wasn’t There

17.   In the Bedroom

18.   Damage

19.   The Pledge

20.   Election

21.   Unfaithful

22.   Throne of Blood

23.   Miller’s Crossing

24.   The Fly

25.   Uncut Gems

26.   A History of Violence

27.   The Northman

28.   Alfie (Caine version)

29.   A Place in the Sun

30.   Network

[The Panda]

I have a very busy week, since I won’t be able to get around to tallying the votes until this weekend I’ll accept lists until October 13th