The Marvels | November 10, 2023 | Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter

[Liiviig 1998]

42 minutes ago, TheFlatLannister said:

From a writing standpoint, she hulk is the worse MCU project. Secret invasion writing isn’t so bad, but it kind of destroys the MCU’s worldbuilding 

World building in secret invasion was just terrible.

[YM!]

39 minutes ago, Deep Wang said:

 

She-Hulk is literally top tier (MCU) television.

This is true. It’s the most like a TV show vs the others which are more or less extended movies. It, Ms. Marvel and WandaVision are flawed to stop them from greatness but at least good shows.

 

Best Marvel show since Daredevil though is easily Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur. It’s funny how much the disconnected animated comic book media is clearly the connected live action comic book media.

[toutvabien]

Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Hawkeye and Moon Knight all either needed less or more episodes or just a better structure; they really felt the weight of approaching these shows like long movies. Ms. Marvel also did to an extent, but that should have just been a 2 hour movie either way.

 

I think WandaVision, Loki, What-If and (especially) She-Hulk worked the best with the TV show medium, although Loki is really the only one which can really have potential as a multiple-seasons long running show.

[PlatnumRoyce]

10 hours ago, Willowra said:

Nia won't be directing Avengers movies; Larson might have more information about the next Avengers movies than her, as she would be part of those movies.

 

that's not what I'm talking about. It may be reductive to stress this but ultimately, Nia's doing that interview as marketing. As a marketing move, Marvel's ability to sell the "grand unified plot arc that stretches from phase 1 to Endgame" is self-evidently very important in having audiences invested. It's also sort of obviously bullshit. e.g. there was no plan for Thanos when he was included in 2012 but people will still talk as if "all our macguffins are now infinity stones" was intricately set up from day 1. 

It just feels like the curtain hiding the great and wonderful oz is being less carefully pulled tightly down. I could be exaggerating the change but it feels notable to a certain degree. Perhaps they're a victim of their own success as the success of "the infinity saga" leads to more immediate focus on this in interviews?

[Deep Wang]

19 minutes ago, toutvabien said:

Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Hawkeye and Moon Knight all either needed less or more episodes or just a better structure; they really felt the weight of approaching these shows like long movies. Ms. Marvel also did to an extent, but that should have just been a 2 hour movie either way.

 

I think WandaVision, Loki, What-If and (especially) She-Hulk worked the best with the TV show medium, although Loki is really the only one which can really have potential as a multiple-seasons long running show.

 

Yeah, and while WV was one-and-done, I don't know how you could have made that into a movie, unlike the rest of the 6ep shows.  I didn't like how they Avenger'd What If down the stretch, but they could make that for years because the format is perfect for TV.  She-Hulk is also pretty perfect - just give her a case a week and some shenanigans on the side and I'll watch it all.

[SpiderByte]

Well at least D'Acosta can do the promo even if the cast can't 

 

[Willowra]

50 minutes ago, PlatnumRoyce said:

 

that's not what I'm talking about. It may be reductive to stress this but ultimately, Nia's doing that interview as marketing. As a marketing move, Marvel's ability to sell the "grand unified plot arc that stretches from phase 1 to Endgame" is self-evidently very important in having audiences invested. It's also sort of obviously bullshit. e.g. there was no plan for Thanos when he was included in 2012 but people will still talk as if "all our macguffins are now infinity stones" was intricately set up from day 1. 

It just feels like the curtain hiding the great and wonderful oz is being less carefully pulled tightly down. I could be exaggerating the change but it feels notable to a certain degree. Perhaps they're a victim of their own success as the success of "the infinity saga" leads to more immediate focus on this in interviews?

Thanos was going to be the villain of Avengers: Infinity War and Endgame; Kevin Feige already knew that from the start, which is why they teased Thanos in Avengers (2012). They planned the finale during that time, or it may have been even earlier when they showed the tesseract (space stone) in Captain America: The First Avenger. Joss Whedon didn't know what he would do with Thanos because Feige didn't discuss that with him at that time; they discuss the future storyline with a director only when they want that director for the movie. Kang Dynasty was scheduled to start filming early next year; it was the strike and Major's case that delayed the movie, so they already know what is going to happen in the next two Avengers movies. Nia don't know about this because they haven't discussed it with her. They plan their movies 5–10 years in advance. I think they've already planned what would be the next saga after the multiverse saga.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Willowra

[ChipDerby]

3 hours ago, Deep Wang said:

 

For me personally, WV/What if.../She-Hulk were the only things that felt like they were actually trying to be a TV show.  

 

Everything else seemed to follow the 6 hour movie thing that I'm not a fan of.  I really liked Loki and liked Ms. Marvel/Hawkeye, but they could have been better.  Everything else is just blah.

What's everything else? That's like all their shows lol

[toutvabien]

1 hour ago, SpiderByte said:

Well at least D'Acosta can do the promo even if the cast can't 

 

I think there's something even more compelling here; Monica idolized Carol as her cool auntie figure and a hero she looked up to, until Carol a) was abducted and brainwashed into a Kree soldier and b) even when she turned to her senses and reunited with her and Maria, she stayed mostly off Earth, protecting the Galaxy until she needed to come back for Thanos. They even hinted this film will explore how many times Carol has really visited since the 90s. Monica was already upset that Carol wasn't there for Maria when she died, even though Carol wasn't snapped away like she was. This builds to very interesting drama between these characters.

 

On the other hand, Kamala is a teen girl who has no reason not to idolize Captain Marvel, whom she has never met before this film. She's an icon for helping save Earth from Thanos as far as Kamala is concerned. She's teaming up with her hero. Carol is no longer a hero for Monica, there's unaddressed trauma between them. Really interesting contrast between her and Kamala.

[eddyxx]

On 7/28/2023 at 4:32 PM, ZattMurdock said:

Not even I watched Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. when Nick Fury, Maria Hill and Lady Sif showed up on that show last decade. Or literally more than half of the Marvel tv shows to be honest. People not watching all Marvel content is not as novel as people are making out to be. 

but but but Agents of SHIELD is better than 90 percent of the marvel d plus shows.

[TwoMisfits]

3 hours ago, YM! said:

This is true. It’s the most like a TV show vs the others which are more or less extended movies. It, Ms. Marvel and WandaVision are flawed to stop them from greatness but at least good shows.

 

Best Marvel show since Daredevil though is easily Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur. It’s funny how much the disconnected animated comic book media is clearly the connected live action comic book media.

 

My answers are Hit-Monkey and Hawkeye...both wildly exceeded expectations...(although Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur is now on my list to watch b/c it's about the only one I haven't yet:)...

Edited August 13, 2023 by TwoMisfits

[Deep Wang]

1 hour ago, ChipDerby said:

What's everything else? That's like all their shows lol

 

I guess Moon Knight and FAWS 🤣

 

I haven't seen Secret Invasion yet, so obviously that as well once I get around to it lol.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Deep Wang
forgot about SI!

[YM!]

37 minutes ago, TwoMisfits said:

 

My answers are Hit-Monkey and Hawkeye...both wildly exceeded expectations...(although Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur is now on my list to watch b/c it's about the only one I haven't yet:)...

Moon Girl is much more of a kids show like for instance the stuff you see on Disney Channel. It’s got the lesson of the week thing and the norm but it makes up for it in likeable characters, strong artwork and animation, a solid story and great action sequences. It even tackles gentrification in a smart way without feeling dumbed down or too much like a lesson in a few episodes (though it’s not the main plot). Recommend it if you don’t mind cartoons of the like.

 

Haven’t gotten to Hit-Monkey yet but will eventually. Liked Hawkeye too for what is was, and is probably one of the better MCU shows.

Edited August 13, 2023 by YM!

[PlatnumRoyce]

3 hours ago, Willowra said:

Nia don't know about this because they haven't discussed it with her.

 

Again, point was just about how this interview (and others) slot into Marvel as a marketing exercise. 

Anyways, I'm not arguing Disney/Marvel has no idea about what they're going to do, it's just they're not really committed to anything and a pretty strong room to pivot. There's no "sacred MCU timeline," just variable plans for future films and how they're combine with others. 

I'm sure they have ideas for films 5-10 years in advance (especially now that they want to reintroduce some heavy hitters) but if this was super planned out, you wouldn't have obvious holes in how Civil War and Black Panther display the rest of the world's relationship to Wakanda. 
 

Quote

showed the tesseract (space stone) in Captain America:

This is the best possible example of my point! The "tesseract" very clearly isn't "the space stone" in Captain America, it's the cosmic cube and was clearly understood as such at the time. I'm sure they had some idea about how to pay off the cosmic cube, but it's just one of many alt paths they could have gone down. The early "phase 2" films are crammed with "this is what infinity stones are" little explainers. See also Thor 1 including the Infinity Gauntlet in Asguard's trophy case. 

The post-Avengers films were able to effortlessly sell the entirety of phase 1 as being part of Thanos' story despite nothing about it being planned at the time. Here's What Feige said

 

Quote

“I wanted to get cosmic and did with 'Thor' and told [Joss] that we wanted it to be aliens, that a portal opens in New York and aliens poor out, because the cosmic cube opened a portal. Who they were, what they were, and how they interacted was all Joss and Joss is a huge fan of Thanos.” - https://www.slashfilm.com/520761/exclusive-joss-whedon-kevin-feige-explain-origin-the-avengers-post-script/

 

There's a really cool, really strong idea - Avengers/Justice league form to fight off a big alien invasion but nothing about that or Loki's desire to rule earth organically connects to "Thanos" in the abstract. It's all sold on the strength of the "MCU" narrative and audiences go along with future film moves.

 

Similarly, just play the game of connecting "post-credit scenes" to the film's that allegedly pay them off.  They're much less of a seamless garment than they're sold as. Which literally goes back to Iron Man 1's Nick Fury tease. IM2 kills the "Iron Man founds the avengers" pitch (which was also teased by the post-credit scene of The Incredible Hulk). I'm sure people had some ideas about how DS2 would be about Mordo attacking magic users but they easily pivoted to NWH (which itself quickly discards/reworks the FFH ending which was vaguely intended as a tease for a Kraven v. Spider-Man film). 


A lot of sequels soft recon stuff that audiences simply accept moving forward because they're invested in the films/franchises and execution matters a lot more than examining things under a microscope. 

 

Quote

because Feige didn't discuss that with him at that time

IDK, you can see plenty of directors praise Feige & co. for the freedom they've had to set storylines within some very vague grounds. Also, before they settled on the multiverse Saga, Feige appeared to indicate the next phase would be focused on "cosmic marvel" lead by Gunn.  We can debate any specific example but if you just listen to what people who work on these films say in interviews, it's just not reconcilable with public beliefs. 

The great success of the MCU is to sell a really tightly controlled narrative while giving more freedom to stand alone films. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by PlatnumRoyce

[Mojoguy]

I can see WB releasing the Barbie movie on dvd/blu on the day the Marvels is release. It would be a brilliant marketing move, and utter troll job by WB to try to take attention away from Marvels.

 

They were petty enough against Nolan to schedule Barbie against Oppy, but that worked out for both movies when it became a meme.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Mojoguy

[dudalb]

On 8/13/2023 at 12:20 PM, toutvabien said:

I think there's something even more compelling here; Monica idolized Carol as her cool auntie figure and a hero she looked up to, until Carol a) was abducted and brainwashed into a Kree soldier and b) even when she turned to her senses and reunited with her and Maria, she stayed mostly off Earth, protecting the Galaxy until she needed to come back for Thanos. They even hinted this film will explore how many times Carol has really visited since the 90s. Monica was already upset that Carol wasn't there for Maria when she died, even though Carol wasn't snapped away like she was. This builds to very interesting drama between these characters.

 

On the other hand, Kamala is a teen girl who has no reason not to idolize Captain Marvel, whom she has never met before this film. She's an icon for helping save Earth from Thanos as far as Kamala is concerned. She's teaming up with her hero. Carol is no longer a hero for Monica, there's unaddressed trauma between them. Really interesting contrast between her and Kamala.

also tension between Kamala and Carol..and Monica probably because Karmala is so young and inexperienced and probably has a tendacy to do what she wants and not pay much attenion to orders Which will drive both Carola and Monica..who have a Military background nuts.

They shot on locastion at Colorado Springs, so Carol's background as a USAFA graduate will be explored a bit.

[YM!]

So 2une being fucked over due to corporate greed saved this. Now it gets IMAX and doesn’t have to worry about another big tentpole stealing it’s thunder… so long as quality is there.

[TMP]

This movie looks like a redbox original, i feel like IMAX would only make it look worse haha

[TheFlatLannister]

upping my prediction to $85M OW, $220M DOM + $280M OS = $500M WW. With IMAX now locked and Dune moving, I don't see The Marvels missing the $400M mark 

[Durden]

9 minutes ago, TMP said:

This movie looks like a redbox original, i feel like IMAX would only make it look worse haha

 

Not how IMAX works.