Weekend Thread | TAYLOR SWIFT $31M Estimate, KOTFM $23M

[eeetooki]

Some of the complaints are the very definition of white saviour POV.

"We made a movie about your history, what else do you want?"

[ThomasNicole]

Honestly, i have nothing against Devery. 
 

But being part of anything always come at some price. I feel her opinion is very valid, still, there’s hardly other way of telling that story without violence, it just come together. 
 

I feel she’s being part of a very similar situation, also doing a good work in representation being part of the future Echo TV Show, but still, to do that she entered a franchise that constantly reaffirms imperialistic behaviors. 
 

There’s no way you can do some things without tackle some problems, it’s part of the art. 
 

Still the problem i’m getting here is that members are simply picking some opinions to entitle their own vision, and this is also dehumanizing. It’s on a verge of saying the indigenous people happy with the project don’t exist and they do and they’re very vocal about it. It’s just starting to feel like stanwar the constant use of a few selected opinions to validate your own, and it’s getting weird considering the subject.

[ZattMurdock]

1 minute ago, ThomasNicole said:

Honestly, i have nothing against Devery. 
 

But being part of anything always come at some price. I feel her opinion is very valid, still, there’s hardly other way of telling that story without violence, it just come together. 
 

I feel she’s being part of a very similar situation, also doing a good work in representation being part of the future Echo TV Show, but still, to do that she entered a franchise that constantly reaffirms imperialistic behaviors. 
 

There’s no way you can do some things without tackle some problems, it’s part of the art. 
 

Still the problem i’m getting here is that members are simply picking some opinions to entitle their own vision, and this is also dehumanizing. It’s on a verge of saying the indigenous people happy with the project don’t exist and they do and they’re very vocal about it. It’s just starting to feel like stanwar the constant use of a few selected opinions to validate your own, and it’s getting weird considering the subject.

Escapism shit can be empowering without being harmful. We don’t really know how well or how badly native people are represented on Echo, and yet, it’s just superhero escapism non-sense. Make believe. It’s important to Native people to see themselves at all spaces. And if it’s bad, she is already part of a legendary tv show and definitely has a say on the matter, since that is a positive representation of native people. If anything, don’t watch Echo: watch Reservation Dogs:

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/how-reservation-dogs-became-a-breakthrough-hit-for-indigenous-representation

 

It’s amazing, reminds me of Atlanta.

[Curiouser and Curiouser]

2 minutes ago, ThomasNicole said:

Honestly, i have nothing against Devery. 
 

But being part of anything always come at some price. I feel her opinion is very valid, still, there’s hardly other way of telling that story without violence, it just come together. 
 

I feel she’s being part of a very similar situation, also doing a good work in representation being part of the future Echo TV Show, but still, to do that she entered a franchise that constantly reaffirms imperialistic behaviors. 
 

There’s no way you can do some things without tackle some problems, it’s part of the art. 
 

Still the problem i’m getting here is that members are simply picking some opinions to entitle their own vision, and this is also dehumanizing. It’s on a verge of saying the indigenous people happy with the project don’t exist and they do and they’re very vocal about it. It’s just starting to feel like stanwar the constant use of a few selected opinions to validate your own, and it’s getting weird considering the subject.

I just feel it's a little cynical that Scorsese seems to be getting more criticism than David Grann, when David Grann's book is mostly about the birth of the FBI. People laugh at this budget, but a huge reason the budget was this high was because Scorsese wanted to make this movie "top of the line" and not cut corners or shoot elsewhere. It had to film where it happened. Of course I cannot speak for any indigenous people or the Osage, and everyone has a right to feel however they want. I really didn't mean to suggest Cote can't have his opinion. I just don't agree film premieres are the place for more nuanced critiques or discussions. That's all! He did really good work in the movie and a premiere is about celebrating everyone's work. And promoting the film, which was already hampered by the lack of actors. 

 

[MrPink]

Scorsese has never shied away from the things that are depicted here, so I don't know... I consider it in line with his previous work and isn't exclusive to this film because he's trying to be disrespectful. There's no perverse intent here but obviously the lens that the audience receives it is always different for each individual

 

Reading through the history, what does shock me is just how much is accurately depicted, frankly. I thought the movie would take a lot more liberties than it did. All in all, I think there's honest intention here which the ending is pretty clear about but Scorsese is an 80 year old guy who's not going to handle every aspect perfectly and progressively. But I think Scorsese is also OK with that. He'd rather people discuss the film on these merits.

 

People can argue about whether there should have been someone else with a closer personal lens to tackle the project, but let me put it this way, my girlfriend is from China, has no history of this, but saw it because of the attention Scorsese and Leo afforded the project. She was absolutely shocked at the details and story here. She learned a lot. It showed her a piece of history she might not have ever known about otherwise because of their specific draw, and if there are others like my gf, I think that's a positive thing, even if it's far from perfect.

Edited October 23, 2023 by MrPink

[ZattMurdock]

Just now, Curiouser and Curiouser said:

Of course I cannot speak for any indigenous people or the Osage, and everyone has a right to feel however they want. 

So don’t speak for them. Listen to them and echo their voices. Whatever you do, just don’t do a disservice of asking how dare they.

[Curiouser and Curiouser]

1 minute ago, ZattMurdock said:

So don’t speak for them. Listen to them and echo their voices. Whatever you do, just don’t do a disservice of asking how dare they.

no where did I ever say "how dare they" stop being disingenuous. It's offensive. If anything, the people speaking for Christopher Cote are the ones cynically using his comments to try to justify why this project sucks. 

 

Also, way to ignore the numerous members of the community who are thrilled with the film! It's like this notion that if one person has any issue with it in a community, we all have to immediately feel like their opinion holds the most weight. 

 

 

 

 

[JustLurking]

17 minutes ago, CoolioD1 said:

I have mixed feelings on the way the native americans are portrayed in the film but the film, and the ending are definitely encouraging conversation in a way I don't think Scorsese would be upset about the dude criticizing his movie at the premiere. 

 

And ultimately I think people who wanna slam the film can easily find indigenous folks criticizing it and people who love it can only pay attention to the ones who praise it. there hasn't been a monolithic response. It would be a shame to see their words just used by others as ammo for internet arguments.

I'd say you'd be right, except the two sides are actually people having watching the film and making up their minds vs people cherrypicking opinions to attack a film they didn't want to see and will not see and attack a director they very clearly have a vendetta against.

 

 

[ZattMurdock]

1 minute ago, Curiouser and Curiouser said:

no where did I ever say "how dare they" stop being disingenuous. It's offensive. If anything, the people speaking for Christopher Cote are the ones cynically using his comments to try to justify why this project sucks. 

 

Also, way to ignore the numerous members of the community who are thrilled with the film! It's like this notion that if one person has any issue with it in a community, we all have to immediately feel like their opinion holds the most weight. 

 

 

 

 

You got what I meant, I’m only taking a problem with the way you reacted towards Cotes and Carpenter’s comments. And no one here is saying that every single native person or Osage think the same as them. But they do have the right to say what they think of the film, more than any of us that aren’t Osage. 

[Maggie]

4 minutes ago, JustLurking said:

 people cherrypicking opinions to attack a film they didn't want to see and will not see and attack a director they very clearly have a vendetta against.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Maggie

[Curiouser and Curiouser]

6 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

You got what I meant, I’m only taking a problem with the way you reacted towards Cotes and Carpenter’s comments. And no one here is saying that every single native person or Osage think the same as them. But they do have the right to say what they think of the film, more than any of us that aren’t Osage. 

Of course they are entitled to their valid opinions! i'm interested in their opinions. My only critique of them is I simply don't believe a movie premiere is the place for that sort of nuance they were going for. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. I really don't think Scorsese cares. I feel like going to a premiere is inherently an endorsement of a film. So to do that and then give the media quotes that become the whole story is a little unusual. no one should ever feel pressure to attend a premiere of a movie they do not support or endorse. But i'm not even saying that applies to them. I think their message was being deliberately misinterpreted by the anti scorsese crowd. That's what I'm reacting to. For the most part, I think their comments were very interesting and thoughtful. 

 

I can relate to seeing your people's tragedy be depicted on screen and the mixed and sad feelings that come with that. This film is of much higher quality than basically the only film that ever tackled my people's story. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Curiouser and Curiouser

[Mojoguy]

18 minutes ago, eeetooki said:

Some of the complaints are the very definition of white saviour POV.

"We made a movie about your history, what else do you want?"

I doubt that was what Marty was thinking?

 

Probably more "I made a movie about your history, I hope you enjoy it".

[MysteryMovieMogul]

8 minutes ago, ThomasNicole said:

I feel she’s being part of a very similar situation, also doing a good work in representation being part of the future Echo TV Show, but still, to do that she entered a franchise that constantly reaffirms imperialistic behaviors. 

The United States was founded on Imperialism. We live in a society, and everything we partake in reaffirms imperialistic behaviors in some way. We can't chastise someone non-white for being part of the Marvel machine when we never do the same for white actors.

[eeetooki]

Just now, Mojoguy said:

I doubt that was what Marty was thinking?

 

Probably more "I made a movie about your history, I hope you enjoy it".

 

I am talk about the comments here.

[ZattMurdock]

Just now, Maggie said:

That’s a cute way of trying to dismiss what I say, and that’s why I rarely talk serious on this message board and why I avoid saying what I think. Shaming me to point out something that is been talked about won’t make a hard subject any less more complicated. But anyway, back to never talking about this ever again and keep my thoughts to myself. Escapism is far less hurtful and I’ll stick to my lane.

[MysteryMovieMogul]

At the end of the day, nothing I say and nothing @ZattMurdock says will affect Scorsese. He made this film. He got the funding. It's in theaters. Whatever path its on will not be affected by anything we say, or anything said in this forum for that matter.

[titanic2187]

1 minute ago, MysteryMovieMogul said:

At the end of the day, nothing I say and nothing @ZattMurdock says will affect Scorsese. He made this film. He got the funding. It's in theaters. Whatever path its on will not be affected by anything we say, or anything said in this forum for that matter.

Yeah and he still on the way to its 10th best director and best picture nomination at the Oscar. The real power of cinema. 

[Maggie]

2 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

That’s a cute way of trying to dismiss what I say, and that’s why I rarely talk serious on this message board and why I avoid saying what I think. Shaming me to point out something that is been talked about won’t make a hard subject any less more complicated. But anyway, back to never talking about this ever again and keep my thoughts to myself. Escapism is far less hurtful and I’ll stick to my lane.

I don't dismiss what you have to say. YOu have some good reasoning, but it makes me wonder if your hate for Marty isn't at the heart of your hate of this movie. It's like you look for every negative detail to spew hate on Marty and the movie.

[Borobudur]

KotFM come 250k above estimate, -30% Sunday drop for $23.3m OW 

[ThomasNicole]

1 minute ago, MysteryMovieMogul said:

The United States was founded on Imperialism. We live in a society, and everything we partake in reaffirms imperialistic behaviors in some way. We can't chastise someone non-white for being part of the Marvel machine when we never do the same for white actors.

I didn’t chastise anyone, i just said the conflict she said is the type of conflict that are part of making movies or TV Shows. I just use one of the projects she’s on to reinforce how this happens in everything, even if, like i said very clearly, she’s have a fair take on it and it’s doing a good work on representation in her own projects that also have problems.
 

This is critical thinking, not a chastise or an attack. 

 

And i’m disliking how you pick minorities opinions to validate your own and then answer everyone that disagreed with you subliminally saying that people are invalidating minorities opinions, or putting blame / chatise on them. Use minorities pov to weaponize them in your benefit is dehumanizing, and it’s what your posts are feeling tbh. 
 

I’ll end this here, i’m not interest in keep this discussion with this type of rethoric.