John Marston Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 38 minutes ago, Valonqar said: He didn't prove your point quite the contrary. You may pretend all you like that The Marvels was a regular sequel to CM but reality is that it wasn't because they tied it in with TV shows especially the flop one so it became something else. Taking the title away from CM didn't help the matter either. It wasn't a risk as much as it was a massive miscalculation. Point being, you got a movie that you perosnaly wanted, it didn't work for others who aren't you - in fact it became the studio's stain and embarrassment - so pushing forward with more of that is a business suicide. The audience(who isn't you) have spoken. You may not like that they rejected that movie and those characters (all or specific one) and embraced different movies and characters (Barbenheimer, Mario, Spiderverse, GOTG 3, Wonka, ABY, etc) but that's what it is. Again, there's nothing new or risky about this superbomb. It was 100% a miscalulation based on expectations that weren't met. They thought the 2 Marvels who weren't CM would become household names by the time movie came out and that absolutely didn't happen. Talk about counting their chickens before they hatched. On top of that the movie was shit. And shoveling rejected characters and/or concepts down audience throats again and again =/= risky. It's dumb. I mean even a regular sequel to Captain Marvel would have had a gigantic decrease (that movie was clearly now lifted up by IW/Endgame hype). Adding in the other characters didn’t add any kind of interest or intrigue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valonqar Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) 11 hours ago, John Marston said: I mean even a regular sequel to Captain Marvel would have had a gigantic decrease (that movie was clearly now lifted up by IW/Endgame hype). Adding in the other characters didn’t add any kind of interest or intrigue That absolutely, 100% stands. The disagreement here is whether Marvel should push forward with characters are aren't connecting - how many bombs one needs for that to sink in? - and my stance is that it shouldn't while his is that it should cause he sees it as "taking risk". But reality is that Marvel never took a risk there cause it was at the peak of its popularity and thought it could sell anything. And then when it found out that it couldn't, they didn't know how to respond to rejection in timely manner. @PlatnumRoyce Secret Invasion is ignored because it was released and tanked when the movie was about to be released. So they didn't know if it would flop and when it did they couldn't do anything to change the movie. OTOH, when Ms Marvel tanked, they still had a big enough window to make changes that a) disconnected the movie from the show (since barely anyone watched the show, movie didn't have to pick up where the show left off) and b) demoted TV characters from co-leads to just supporting including the change of title that would emphasize CM over the team. Titles change all the time, it's really no big deal and there was already brouhaha over CM losing the title which didn't happen with any other SH. Edited February 18 by Valonqar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderByte Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) Nothing about Ms Marvels reception warranted her being removed from the movie in the way you claim she should have. In fact, the most common thing across the reviews is that Ms Marvel is most people's favorite part, so this idea of "if they just got rid of Ms Marvel it'd be a hit" isn't based in reality. It's just based on your constant whining about women, especially women who aren't white, in the MCU. Edited February 18 by SpiderByte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daxtreme Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) Regardless of how positive Ms.Marvel's reception was, or how she was the best part of the movie (which I agree with), the fact remains that a lot of people thought that watching Ms.Marvel before watching The Marvels was required viewing, and they hadn't seen it, and decided to skip the movie. That hurts the movie. Marvel's decision to make TV shows required viewing is backfiring massively on them. Just to give you an example, my brother and his wife watched every single marvel movie until the TV shows started coming in. We went to theaters to watch them, every time, you can't say they're not "fans enough". But they have a kid, they're busy, they have to select what they watch more than before, and those TV shows Marvel are putting out, well, they're coming out faster than they can watch them. They watched WandaVision, Loki, and a few others, but they can't keep up. So for the first time since 2015 my brother and his wife skipped a marvel movie, because they haven't seen Ms.Marvel (or Secret Invasion either). Who knows when they'll have time to watch those. And these are pretty big fans of the MCU we're talking about. They're always excited for a new Marvel movie. I know it's anecdotal but imagine how worse it is for the GA Now you see why The Marvels flopped. It has nothing to do with the quality of Ms.Marvel. It has everything to do with the fact that it is required viewing in the eyes of many, and many skipped it for various reasons, and oh wow guess what... they skip that one too Edited February 18 by Daxtreme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderByte Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 10 minutes ago, Daxtreme said: Regardless of how positive Ms.Marvel's reception was, or how she was the best part of the movie (which I agree with), the fact remains that a lot of people thought that watching Ms.Marvel before watching The Marvels was required viewing, and they hadn't seen it, and decided to skip the movie. That hurts the movie. Except everyone who has seen the movie knows that it isn't. So no, it really doesn't matter. Very conveniently people are not making this argument for Loki being "homework" for Deadpool when 90 percent of the trailer involves stuff directly from that series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Marston Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) 2 hours ago, SpiderByte said: Nothing about Ms Marvels reception warranted her being removed from the movie in the way you claim she should have. In fact, the most common thing across the reviews is that Ms Marvel is most people's favorite part, so this idea of "if they just got rid of Ms Marvel it'd be a hit" isn't based in reality. It's just based on your constant whining about women, especially women who aren't white, in the MCU. agree. Captain Marvel 2 was going to flop no matter what. But it’s clear nobody cared about Ms Marvel. Nobody watched her show and the movie where she was heavily marketed as being part of is one of the biggest box office bombs of all time. It is just a Cold hard fact Edited February 18 by John Marston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderByte Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 I don't know why you pretend like Carol wasn't front and center in all of the marketing. This was not promoted as Ms Marvel The Movie like you pretend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valonqar Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 1 hour ago, John Marston said: agree. Captain Marvel 2 was going to flop no matter what. But it’s clear nobody cared about Ms Marvel. Nobody watched her show and the movie where she was heavily marketed as being part of is one of the biggest box office bombs of all time. It is just a Cold hard fact Yep, audience apathy is worse than something being just bad. If it's bad than you fix it. if reviews say "this is good you should see it" and they still don't care than you can't do anything about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderByte Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) There are certain opinions about Marvel people have that pretty much only exist on this board that those same people take as absolute fact, like that most people hate Ms Marvel as a character or stuff like Thunderbolts/Blade/insert character the user doesn't like here being imminently in danger of being scrapped for the last 8 months, which only really exist on here and not actually things reflected by reality. Edited February 18 by SpiderByte 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toutvabien Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 None of The Marvels are going anywhere, they are just not gonna get another project to lead. But yea, sucks how much they botched the Captain Marvel character and franchise by having 30 years worth of adventures all happen off screen and benching her. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YM! Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) 7 hours ago, SpiderByte said: Except everyone who has seen the movie knows that it isn't. So no, it really doesn't matter. Very conveniently people are not making this argument for Loki being "homework" for Deadpool when 90 percent of the trailer involves stuff directly from that series. In fairness, no name time travel cops and no major characters from Loki having a main role especially when the second ends with time travel fuckery isn't the same as having a lead of a show as one of the leads in a movie. The GA takes things at face value, even though by design, Marvel movies are easily accessible. It's not like either Loki or Mobius as leads, nor did Kamala break into the mainstream as much as Wanda did. However, The Marvels bombing wasn't on the characters perse but a multitude of issues. Do think if Ms. Marvel was a movie, it'd help the fortunes of The Marvels more. Edited February 18 by YM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderByte Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Small news in here: confirmation that Kang Dynasty will have a new title. Not certain if that mean Kang is gone outright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macleod Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) 14 minutes ago, SpiderByte said: Small news in here: confirmation that Kang Dynasty will have a new title. Not certain if that mean Kang is gone outright They say it right there: They will now "either minimize the character or excise him entirely." And the claim is that they were already making moves to minimize the character after Quantumania underperformed (but seriously, folks, I don't know why they expected that movie to "explode"). My guess is that they will drop Kang, period, and the focus will shift to building an antagonist like The Beyonder as well as possibly...Doom. Edited February 21 by Macleod 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadOlCatSylvester Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 As I've said previously, the moment he was taken down by Ant-Man's ant army was the moment any and all credibility Kang had got completely vaporized. A YouTube comment perfectly pointed out that the shadowy and mysterious first meeting between Scott and Kang coming right after a flashback of him getting his ass kicked and devolving into a snot-nosed brat did not do him any favours. So I couldn't be happier that he's gone now. I wouldn't mind revisiting the character in a decade or so, but for now, Marvel would do good moving on. 38 minutes ago, Macleod said: They say it right there: They will now "either minimize the character or excise him entirely." And the claim is that they were already making moves to minimize the character after Quantumania underperformed (but seriously, folks, I don't know why they expected that movie to "explode"). My guess is that they will drop Kang, period, and the focus will shift to building an antagonist like The Beyonder as well as possibly...Doom. I actually think they might go for, say, Miles Teller as The Maker, the evil Reed Richards from the Ultimate Marvel comics, as the villain of the next Avengers event. It would be nicely compatible with all the other legacy Marvel actors returning to the big screen these past couple of years. This does assume they still want to make it a two-parter though, and after Disney's financial troubles, I have a feeling Iger will follow in Warner's footsteps and ask for it to be cut down to just one movie. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YM! Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 1 hour ago, Macleod said: They say it right there: They will now "either minimize the character or excise him entirely." And the claim is that they were already making moves to minimize the character after Quantumania underperformed (but seriously, folks, I don't know why they expected that movie to "explode"). My guess is that they will drop Kang, period, and the focus will shift to building an antagonist like The Beyonder as well as possibly...Doom. Feel like shifting from Kang without a plan in motion would already further cap the DCEU vibes MCU has been having for a minute. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlatnumRoyce Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Honestly, pretty much a nothingburger of an article that's almost more interesting for what's not said than what is (i.e. praising Agatha's production while saying nothing about Daredevil). Just a slightly puffy reiteration of old news. Quote while TV shows (such as Ironheart) have filmed, but have no release date in sight. It is all designed to give creatives some breathing room and give audiences the chance to miss the MCU, just a little bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderByte Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 I mean Loki got beat by Thor and was still the main villain of Avengers. It wouldnt even have been the same Kang. Kang being beatable was never the point, he isn't unbearable, there's just literally billions of him. Kang isn't invincible, but a single earth stopping every single Kang is the challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoMisfits Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 19 minutes ago, SpiderByte said: I mean Loki got beat by Thor and was still the main villain of Avengers. It wouldnt even have been the same Kang. Kang being beatable was never the point, he isn't unbearable, there's just literally billions of him. Kang isn't invincible, but a single earth stopping every single Kang is the challenge. Then the ending of Ant Man should have been Ant Man defeating Kang 1, while getting blindsided by a Kang 2, who tsks tsks that Kang 1 couldn't handle a little bug all by himself (and Cassie still getting home)...if you are gonna go that arc (they aren't invincible, but when they start popping in to help, they get pretty dang like that), then you go that arc and set up the whole thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YM! Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) 48 minutes ago, SpiderByte said: I mean Loki got beat by Thor and was still the main villain of Avengers. It wouldnt even have been the same Kang. Kang being beatable was never the point, he isn't unbearable, there's just literally billions of him. Kang isn't invincible, but a single earth stopping every single Kang is the challenge. Kang is always a loser, but his gimmick is he comes back harder and stronger. Tbh hope they still continue with the storyline but I think they should've done an Avengers at the end of Phase 4 - have him be the main villain but lose to his own arrogance but in Phase 5-6, he works his way into various spaces of the MCU gaining power through other crime and alliance and then in Dynasty, he actually becomes a threat the heroes are ill-equipped for. Like Kang helps the heroes against his Council for power but then it backfires for the heroes with Kang betraying them. Edited February 21 by YM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabiopazzo2 Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Good lord. Thank you i hope they will move on destino. galactus. Magneto. Much much much better Villain fort he Avengers 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
