Looper

[Webslinger]

You seem to fail to get my point entirely: my problem really isn't with the time travel problems. It isn't with the believability meter. It's with the basic story itself. When the movie states that the reason the Rainman rose to power in the first place is one reason but that reason couldn't have existed in the first place without the time travel, then that's when you have a problem with the actual core of the story.Strip away the entire time travel that occurred during the movie: why did the Rainman rise to power? According to the movie, it's because his mom was killed by a looper from the future. And yet that looper was killed when he came back the first time instantly. So no, this isn't a question about time travel paradoxes. This is a question on: did this movie even pay attention to earlier pages of the script?

Actually, the only background that we get on what makes Cid become The Rainmaker is that he saw his mother murdered. Nowhere in the film does it say that a looper did it; so in theory, the Rainmaker's origin and time travel have nothing to do with one another. Remember, the Rainmaker took out gangs and mafia syndicates in the future; because said syndicates had the loopers, it only makes sense that he'd want to take them out, too.Now, there is the scene where Joe imagines Cid becoming The Rainmaker because he sees Old Joe shoot his mother, but all of this is going on exclusively in Joe's head; it did not actually happen in the first loop we saw earlier, in which Joe successfully killed his older self (obviously, given that his older self was dead). Because Joe knows that Sarah's murder is what prompted Cid to become evil in Old Joe's timeline (or at least lose any shot he has at controlling his powers and using them for good rather than for destruction), he realizes that if he doesn't prevent Sarah's murder in this moment, the odds of Cid becoming The Rainmaker soar; he would still see her murdered, just by a different hand. And the way Joe imagines this happening match point-for-point with his own reasons for becoming a looper, which included seeing his mother murdered and then hopping aboard a train with vengeance on his mind. I didn't get the impression that anything Joe saw of Cid's "future" had actually happened, but was rather how Joe expected it would happen if his older self killed Sarah, based on a combination of his knowledge of The Rainmaker in Old Joe's timeline and his own personal experience as an angry orphan.

[Water Bottle]

Actually, the only background that we get on what makes Cid become The Rainmaker is that he saw his mother murdered. Nowhere in the film does it say that a looper did it; so in theory, the Rainmaker's origin and time travel have nothing to do with one another. Remember, the Rainmaker took out gangs and mafia syndicates in the future; because said syndicates had the loopers, it only makes sense that he'd want to take them out, too.Now, there is the scene where Joe imagines Cid becoming The Rainmaker because he sees Old Joe shoot his mother, but all of this is going on exclusively in Joe's head; it did not actually happen in the first loop we saw earlier, in which Joe successfully killed his older self (obviously, given that his older self was dead). Because Joe knows that Sarah's murder is what prompted Cid to become evil in Old Joe's timeline (or at least lose any shot he has at controlling his powers and using them for good rather than for destruction), he realizes that if he doesn't prevent Sarah's murder in this moment, the odds of Cid becoming The Rainmaker soar; he would still see her murdered, just by a different hand. And the way Joe imagines this happening match point-for-point with his own reasons for becoming a looper, which included seeing his mother murdered and then hopping aboard a train with vengeance on his mind. I didn't get the impression that anything Joe saw of Cid's "future" had actually happened, but was rather how Joe expected it would happen if his older self killed Sarah, based on a combination of his knowledge of The Rainmaker in Old Joe's timeline and his own personal experience as an angry orphan.

I have considered the unreliable narrator as an excuse for the ending. In fact, part of my problem with the ending is that he saw a loop with no options to get out of it when there was. Having an unreliable narrator doesn't excuse shoddy storytelling. And in his narration at the end, Joe very much seems to indicate that the reason the kid becomes the Rainmaker is because Old Joe shoots his mother. In fact, that's the whole point of the cycle that he speaks of.

[Deep Wang]

Actually, the only background that we get on what makes Cid become The Rainmaker is that he saw his mother murdered. Nowhere in the film does it say that a looper did it; so in theory, the Rainmaker's origin and time travel have nothing to do with one another. Remember, the Rainmaker took out gangs and mafia syndicates in the future; because said syndicates had the loopers, it only makes sense that he'd want to take them out, too.

Now, there is the scene where Joe imagines Cid becoming The Rainmaker because he sees Old Joe shoot his mother, but all of this is going on exclusively in Joe's head; it did not actually happen in the first loop we saw earlier, in which Joe successfully killed his older self (obviously, given that his older self was dead). Because Joe knows that Sarah's murder is what prompted Cid to become evil in Old Joe's timeline (or at least lose any shot he has at controlling his powers and using them for good rather than for destruction), he realizes that if he doesn't prevent Sarah's murder in this moment, the odds of Cid becoming The Rainmaker soar; he would still see her murdered, just by a different hand. And the way Joe imagines this happening match point-for-point with his own reasons for becoming a looper, which included seeing his mother murdered and then hopping aboard a train with vengeance on his mind. I didn't get the impression that anything Joe saw of Cid's "future" had actually happened, but was rather how Joe expected it would happen if his older self killed Sarah, based on a combination of his knowledge of The Rainmaker in Old Joe's timeline and his own personal experience as an angry orphan.

Exactly. When I saw it for a third time, I picked up on the conversation between Abe and Young Joe in which Abe mentions he saw Young Joe as a kid(Young, Young Joe?) and then he saw it "plain as day, like it was on TV, the bad version of your future."

I can't remember exactly what he said, but that is exactly what happens at the end. Young Joe "sees" the bad version play out, and the only way to stop that is to kill himself.

[Gopher]

Water Bottle, I'll let Hulk explain it-

http://badassdigest.com/2012/10/30/film-crit-hulk-smash-hulk-vs.-plot-holes-and-movie-logic/

HULK WAS RECENTLY TALKING WITH A GOOD FRIEND WHO HAS HIS DOCTORATE IN ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING AND IS ONE OF THOSE BRILLIANT DUDES HULK GOES TO WITH QUESTIONS ALL THE TIME (OKAY, OKAY HULK'S FRIEND IS REED RICHARDS). HE DIDN'T BRING UP ANYTHING OVERTLY NITPICKY IN HIS CRITICISM OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, IT'S JUST THAT AS A TIME-TRAVEL ENTHUSIAST HE WAS GETTING HUNG UP ON THE IDEA THAT THE MOVIE CREATED A CONDITION WHERE TIME TRAVEL WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS ABLE TO AFFECT THE FUTURE AND CHANGE IT, BUT ALSO SOMETHING WHERE IT HAD DIRECT CAUSE AND EFFECT WITH THE PAST AND FUTURE SUBJECTS WHEN THEY WERE IN THE SAME TIME. AND, FOR HIM, IT WAS SOMETHING HE GOT STUCK ON.

IT IS A GOOD CONCERN HULK GUESS, BUT ONE HULK MORE OR LESS RESOLVED WITH A SIMPLE EXPLANATION: LOOPERCREATES A WORLD WHERE TIME TRAVEL PROVIDES A SERIES OF ALTERNATE TIMELINES (SHOWN THROUGH THE TWO WAYS THE BRUCE WILLIS LOOP PLAYS OUT), BUT IT IS ALSO A WORLD WHERE SINCE THE TIME TRAVELER FROM THE PAST IS IN THE PRESENT REALITY/TIMELINE THAT MEANS THERE STILL HAS TO BE AT LEAST ONE TIMELINE WHICH BRINGS THEM TO A SCENARIO WHERE THEY STILL COME BACK FROM THE FUTURE (BECAUSE THE PERSON IS RIGHT THERE, YA KNOW?). AND THE ONLY WAY TO EXTINGUISH THAT POSSIBILITY? WITH A REAL TRUE-BLUE DEATH. SO THE FILM PROVIDES US WITH BOTH INTERCONNECTED CAUSE-AND-EFFECT AND ALTERNATIVE TIMELINES WHICH ALLOW FOR MULTIPLE CAUSE-AND-EFFECT FATALIST SCENARIOS. HULK HOPES THIS ALL MAKES SENSE, BUT IT WAS ENOUGH OF A REALLY INTERESTING IDEA TO BOTH SATE REED RICHARDS AND EVEN IF IT WAS MESSY, IT GOT HIM THINKING MORE.

YOU SEE, THE IMPORTANT PART IS THAT FROM THERE IT ACTUALLY PROMPTED A GREAT CONVERSATION ABOUT FATALISM AND THE MOVIE'S THEMES BEYOND LOGIC. REED'S CHIEF CONCERN BEING WHETHER OR NOT THE FILM WAS GETTING INTO THE PARADOXICAL ARGUMENT THAT [SPOILERS FOR REST OF PARAGRAPH] WILLIS GOING AFTER THE RAINMAKER FORCED A SCENARIO IN WHICH HE CREATES THE RAINMAKER AND HOW THAT'S A PARADOX IF THERE ARE ALTERNATE TIMELINES, AND HULK WAS AGAIN COUNTERED WITH THE FACT THAT THE ENDING WASN'T A LITERAL FATALIST CREATION, BUT A THEMATICALLY FATALIST CREATION. THE IDEA THAT CHASING SOMETHING TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH WITH SUCH VIOLENCE ONLY BEGETS MORE FRUITLESS VIOLENCE. IT'S NOT LOGICALLY SAYING IT'S THESPECIFIC CAUSE OF CREATING THE RAINMAKER, IT'S SYMBOLICALLY SAYING THAT THE PURSUIT OF VIOLENCE CAN DO IT FOR ANY TIMELINE. IN TRYING TO UNDO THE PAST WILLIS IS CREATING A NEW SCENARIO WHICH REPLICATES IT. ONLY THE FATALISM ISN'T THE LITERAL ONE TIMELINE WE'VE SEEN IN THESE KINDS OF STORIES BEFORE, BUT INSTEAD THEMATIC TO ALL.

AND THE WHOLE IDEA OF BREAKING THESE KINDS OF HORRIBLE CYCLES IS WHAT THE ENTIRE MOVIE IS ABOUT. AND IF YOU ASK HULK, IT WORKS LIKE GANGBUSTERS BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HINGE THAT REALIZATION ON HULK AND REED FIGURING OUT THE COMPLICATED LOGIC IN A BAR ONE NIGHT A BUNCH OF WEEKS LATER, BUT INSTEAD THE SUCCESS OF LOOPER HINGES ON THE BEAUTIFUL, EMOTIONAL CHARACTER CATHARSIS AT THE CENTER OF THE DRAMA. LIKE THE T-REX ATTACK, THE LOGIC ISN'T WHAT IS MAKING THE MOMENT WORK.

[Webslinger]

I have considered the unreliable narrator as an excuse for the ending. In fact, part of my problem with the ending is that he saw a loop with no options to get out of it when there was. Having an unreliable narrator doesn't excuse shoddy storytelling. And in his narration at the end, Joe very much seems to indicate that the reason the kid becomes the Rainmaker is because Old Joe shoots his mother. In fact, that's the whole point of the cycle that he speaks of.

What was his other way out of the loop? It's stated on numerous occasions that the blunderbuss - the only weapon Joe has on him at the end - is virtually incapable of hitting a target more than 15 feet away. Old Joe was more than 15 feet away, so suicide was the only way for him to take a shot that would definitely kill Old Joe, thus preventing him from killing Sarah (and virtually guaranteeing that Cid would become The Rainmaker).

What about Joe's reasoning represents shoddy storytelling? His logic is sound: Cid is already an exceptionally angry kid in this timeline. Being orphaned in Old Joe's loop was supposedly the event that spurred on his becoming The Rainmaker. Therefore, if Old Joe kills Sarah, it's pretty likely (if not certain) that that event will turn Cid into The Rainmaker, as he will want vengeance and nothing - not even, say, the possibility of Joe taking him under his wing and trying to stop him from channeling his anger into being The Rainmaker - will change that. Joe's best option to stop Cid's transformation from happening in that very moment is killing his older self by killing himself (which, because of what a lousy long range shot the blunderbuss is, happens to be his only guaranteed means of carrying out this objective).

[DeeCee]

I think we're all in need of some sound advice.

[ACCA]

Amazing film, total surprise, I loved it! One of the best films of the year. A really fresh and original take on sci-fi. Everyone in the movie was solid. Rian Johnson has a nice career ahead of him if he continues to make movies like this.I give it an A+.

[ACCA]

Just had to bump this, a shame more people don't appreciate how amazing this film was.

[Gopher]

ACCA, how dare you list The Lorax among those great movies!

[blenderbus]

One of my favorite movies of the year. A

[A Marvel Fanboy]

The most overrated movie of 2012.

[ACCA]

ACCA, how dare you list The Lorax among those great movies!

I know it's lame, but I liked the moral message of the Lorax lol.I would have put Expendables 2 on the list, but I've seen it several times now and each time I watch it I unfortunately like it less and less. It just doesn't have the staying power of the first film.

[Hatebox]

As end-of-year lists come out, it's interesting to me how few Looper appears on. I think the pre-release hype (which was short but intense) was quite detrimental in the end, this should have been a sleeper hit.

[Jay Beezy]

Actually, the only background that we get on what makes Cid become The Rainmaker is that he saw his mother murdered. Nowhere in the film does it say that a looper did it; so in theory, the Rainmaker's origin and time travel have nothing to do with one another. Remember, the Rainmaker took out gangs and mafia syndicates in the future; because said syndicates had the loopers, it only makes sense that he'd want to take them out, too.

Now, there is the scene where Joe imagines Cid becoming The Rainmaker because he sees Old Joe shoot his mother, but all of this is going on exclusively in Joe's head; it did not actually happen in the first loop we saw earlier, in which Joe successfully killed his older self (obviously, given that his older self was dead). Because Joe knows that Sarah's murder is what prompted Cid to become evil in Old Joe's timeline (or at least lose any shot he has at controlling his powers and using them for good rather than for destruction), he realizes that if he doesn't prevent Sarah's murder in this moment, the odds of Cid becoming The Rainmaker soar; he would still see her murdered, just by a different hand. And the way Joe imagines this happening match point-for-point with his own reasons for becoming a looper, which included seeing his mother murdered and then hopping aboard a train with vengeance on his mind. I didn't get the impression that anything Joe saw of Cid's "future" had actually happened, but was rather how Joe expected it would happen if his older self killed Sarah, based on a combination of his knowledge of The Rainmaker in Old Joe's timeline and his own personal experience as an angry orphan.

Actually, the important element to Cid's story is his perception of who his mother is. In his mind, before the existence of time travel and loopers, Sara's sister, his aunt, was his mother. In the original timeline, it wouldn't matter if Sara was murdered, because in Cid's mind, his mother was already dead.

[Webslinger]

Actually, the important element to Cid's story is his perception of who his mother is. In his mind, before the existence of time travel and loopers, Sara's sister, his aunt, was his mother. In the original timeline, it wouldn't matter if Sara was murdered, because in Cid's mind, his mother was already dead.

That's also a very legitimate point to consider. I did think about the possibility of that point also applying to the final timeline, and it still could; but it seems like the filmmakers are implying that Cid turned a corner and accepted Sarah as his mother. Or maybe that's just me reading too optimistically into the ending.

[FilmBuff]

My short/delayed review of Looper.Looper is a terrific movie.One of the best Sci-Fi Action movies to come out in the last several years. The movie was a perfect balance of story, action, themes, and character development. Joseph Gordon-Leavitt was perfect as the younger version of Bruce Willis. Seeing JGL in Looper, reminded me somewhat of a young Bruce Willis in Die Hard. Going into this movie, I expected a cat-and-mouse game between Joseph Gordon Leavitt and Bruce Willis, where you had JGL trying to kill his older self. It was totally different that what I expected. Ultimately, Joseph Gordon-Leavitt's action and consequences will lead him to becoming Bruce Willis. It's simply not a game of cat-and-mouse game, but the dilemma of one's person life. Both characters were extremely relevant too, they had to be for this film to work. I liked the concepts of how they explained time traveled in this movie. No one exactly knows how time-travel works, but for this movie they did a great job of showing how it works. They explained quite a bit, but also kept it vague so the audience could be left guessing. This movie was interesting as hell too, one of those rare movies like Inception that makes you think a lot. The dialoque between the characters was great as well, all the characters were believable b/c of the screenplay. Looper also had heart and depth. This movie surprised me basically on every level. As many of said, there was one part which came directly from The Terminator. I consider this movie somewhat of a tribute to The Terminator, but it also takes that same plot point and makes it its own. The only problem I have with Looper is how it slowed down in some scenes.I give it an A, 4.75/5

[Gopher]

For me, a rewatch cemented this film as something of a sci-fi masterpiece. When Rian Johnson is one of the biggest names in directing in 10 or so years, we'll remember this one as his Terminator.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Gopher

[Gopher]

I loved the last 30 minutes of it Pierce Gagnon, the young kid Cid, was simply incredible. He gave imo the best performance of the film. He cna't be more than 10 years old but his anger and his evil and his frustration really shines in here.

He was five years old when he shot this movie. Talk about giving Quvenzhané Wallis a run for her money. Edited December 23, 2012 by Gopher

[Deep Wang]

For me, a rewatch cemented this film as something of a sci-fi masterpiece. When Rian Johnson is one of the biggest names in directing in 10 or so years, we'll remember this one as his Terminator.

Fucking A. I was waiting on this movie for years, and the fact that it surpassed my expectations is just insane. Can't wait to get the Blu next week!

[Travod]

Just watched it and my question is this:Maybe I'm getting something wrong, but how does he post-events-narrate the story if he kills himself? "lalalalalala circle loop lalalala so I changed it BAM" What? Was there something I missed or was that some major deus ex machina?