Jurassic Park or Avatar?

[Darth Homer]

"Jaws is a classic, Jurassic Park is a nice film". That's what people your age were saying about Jurassic Park back then when it was released...

 

Nostalgia clouds judgement...If you were 11 years old watching Avatar, you would all be thinking it's an instant classic like you believe Jurassic Park is. Most of us here have discovered Jurassic Park being younglings and have fond memories accordingly but everybody don't think the same especially the generation before ours that went all like "Boy, your Jurassic Park is shit with those CGI trickery, Jaws and Star Wars were classics, all practical effects!Let me tell you about Jason and the argonauts, Ray Harryhausen that was the shit!". (And before that "Ben-Hur and the 10 commandments, that's what I called epic entertainment, not your kiddie fare Star Wars!")

Nostalgia does cloud judgment, but that doesn't change the fact that JP only has around 6 minutes of CGI, so it obviously had something going for it other than visual effects. Plus it's funny, whereas Avatar is almost completely humourless.

[dashrendar44]

Jurassic Park is mostly driven by its visual effects (practical and CGI). Dinosaurs were the main attraction. If they were shit or sub-par, people would not have gone in drove to enjoy the ride. Jurassic Park is the embodiment of a movie based on visual effects front and center as a main entertainment factor and selling point to attract audience because there's not a lot of drama and character development  beside Dr Grant hates children at the beginning/Dr Grant loves children at the end. Shit happens, dinosaurs are on the loose, people run for their lives. Period. It is saved from being derivative because well Spielberg is an entertaining master.

 

That's why all the critics and rebuttals addressed regarding Avatar are perfectly suited to Jurassic Park as well. All in all, those movies represent the same in the career of their respective authors when I remove my nostalgia goggles (Dinosaurs mania hit me hard in 1994, I swear): Far from their pinnacle and their best works but enjoyable entertainment based on amazing visuals nonetheless.

Edited April 26, 2013 by dashrendar44

[vc2002]

Nostalgia does cloud judgment, but that doesn't change the fact that JP only has around 6 minutes of CGI, so it obviously had something going for it other than visual effects. Plus it's funny, whereas Avatar is almost completely humourless.

 

So we just totally ignore those practical effects? LOL

[Phil in the Blank]

I just found Avatar to be a totally predictable story with a really lame deus ex machina ending with really lame characters but with amazing direction and a good sense of awe and wonder....whenever characters are not talking.

 

Jurassic park has decent direction (but IMO worse than Avatar), and also a good sense of awe and wonder. But it's characters were more interesting, and its story, while not exactly un-predicatable certainly gave you the sense that these dinosaurs could attack at any time and kept me on the edge of my seat.

[dashrendar44]

T-rex at the end coming out of nowhere for plot convenience when heroes are doomed is a Deux Ex Machina, lame especially no one hear him coming, nor the raptors nor the humans (Also the T-Rex conveniently ignores every single human moving in the scene to attack the raptors only). Even more stupid when Spielberg crafted the famous scene with the goblet of water to show how the T-Rex is such a badass mofo you hear him coming from miles away shaking the ground all around him at a long distance...But at the end, he's a stealth ballerina. Lame. Even when I was young, I always felt it was such a copout ending so Spielberg got to find a way out to end the movie short.

 

Jurassic Park is cookie cutter characters (Goldblum is basically just playing his sarcastic self, annoying kids are annoying because that's what they do) visiting a freaking theme park and being chased by dinosaurs for 2 hours. Yeah, unpredictable drama...

 

JP is funny, yeah, where you're young the toilet jokes are real funny ("Lol Coward guy is taking a dump before being eaten like a rag doll!"), masturbation reference and big dinosaur poop on screen. Hi-la-rious indeed. Avatar didn't need that juvenile humor.

Edited April 26, 2013 by dashrendar44

[Ozymandias]

I just found Avatar to be a totally predictable story with a really lame deus ex machina ending with really lame characters but with amazing direction and a good sense of awe and wonder....whenever characters are not talking.

 

Yeah, especially when James Cameron told me his nature space god didn't take sides and only protects the balance of life.  How convenient that ending was so he could end the movie!

 

[dashrendar44]

Short attention span people don't understand that Grace's mind has been scanned by Eywa since it is a gigantic memory storage of all the deceased beings as Cameron said. So as Jake spoke when he linked himself to the tree of souls, the Eywa entity foreshadowed the fact that humans will break forever the Pandora life equilibrium like they did on Earth (this information is in Grace's mind) if they're not stopped at all. Only Na'vi people thought Eywa never took side, they were wrong.

 

So Cameron actually set up an explanation for that Deus Ex Machina.

Edited April 26, 2013 by dashrendar44

[Phil in the Blank]

Short attention span people don't understand that Grace's mind has been scanned by Eywa since it is a gigantic memory storage of all the deceased beings as Cameron said. So as Jake spoke when he linked himself to the tree of souls, the Eywa entity foreshadowed the fact that humans will break forever the Pandora life equilibrium like they did on Earth (this information is in Grace's mind) if they're not stopped at all. Only Na'vi people thought Eywa never took side, they were wrong.

 

So Cameron actually set up an explanation for that Deus Ex Machina.

 

Repeat that explanation slowly, and then you shall (hopefully) realise why that sounds so incredibly lame to me.

 

As for T-rex showing up at the ending. I am perfectly fine with that. It works.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Phil in the Darkness

[Ozymandias]

As for T-rex showing up at the ending. I am perfectly fine with that. It works.

 

A T-Rex that hasn't been caged for half the film showing up at the end of a dinosaur movie climactic purposes by killing the raptors that were moving when he attacked them(hmmm, maybe thats why the T-rex ignored the humans, he was busy and also had a raptor on his back biting/clawing him!) is absolutely an unacceptable Deus Ex Machina bro.  Just no way in hell broski.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Shpongle

[vc2002]

This thread is now going nowhere.

 

"I think A is better. It works for me. B is lame!"

 

"No! B is better. A doesnt work for me. A is lame!"

 

[dashrendar44]

Repeat that explanation slowly, and then you shall (hopefully) realise why that sounds so incredibly lame to me.

 

As for T-rex showing up at the ending. I am perfectly fine with that. It works.

 

No, double standard at work with kiddo nostalgia clouding judgement. Jurassic Park ending is lame with a teleporting T-Rex coming out of nowhere. It didn't show up through the big doors, they were closed as we see shortly after when they escape. So T-Rex carefully opened the door and then closed them behind him for politeness and discretion because he is stealth like a frickin' ninja, you tell me 3 raptors (?!) can't even sense a big fat T-rex coming and attacking (even if the ground must shake a mile away), that T-rex ignores a group of people (4!) moving as slowly as the raptor that going to eat them.  Are you kidding me??!!! LMAO

 

Because I'll show you the only way where the T-Rex allegedly comes from:

 

 

Behind is a tiny hole when you can see an intact wall of plants and fake backdrop. That T-rex didn't really rampage his way in (That part was obviously under construction and unfinished) but rather crawled inside without anyone noticing at all. As you can see, he's so cautious he didn't knock down the fake jungle (that's obviously a wall painted in blue) behind his trail.

 

That joke works for you?

 

No matter how you try to paint Avatar's ending as lame, Jurassic Park's is even more uneven and easy. Try to think about it more than 5 seconds (hopefully). If you can't see a difference between an ending that has been set up by the director on purpose (You can find it lame all you want, that's just your opinion) and a cop-out ending that ignores what it set up before just for a Deus Ex Machina ending, this is going nowhere bro and all boils down to  "I love this, I hate that"  ignoring arguments whatsoever.

 

The only thing in JP that is really better than Avatar without any argue is John Williams iconic themes.

Edited April 26, 2013 by dashrendar44

[Phil in the Blank]

Thank you for that informative post that told me absolutely everything i already knew

 

Of course if you think about it the T-Rex showing up at the end makes no sense what-so-ever. Neither does the sudden trench that appears when the car falls into the T-Rex pen, but that scene works because its fast and exhilarating. Most people have been so engrossed in the movie by that point that they are not thinking 'lol why is there a huge trench here', they are thinking 'omg falling car!!!!'

 

The T-Rex showing up at the end is similar in this regard. Most people are not thinking 'where in the fuck did that t-rex come from', they are thinking 'holy shit the t-rex saved the day!!!'. And then of course you have the iconic scene of the t-rex roaring with the banner falling down and it all just works in the moment. If you over-think it then yes, you are going to come across those problems that you mentioned, but it works in the moment.

 

But really, and the key difference between the two movies in my opinion, is that the JPark Deus Ex Machina makes sense in the grand scheme of movie explanation unlike Avatar's. Jurassic Park's ending is a very nice book end to the movie. The creature that started off all the madness for our protagonists ends up saving them. We get one last look at everyone's favourite Dinosaur kicking ass and taking names. For what Jurassic Park attempts to deliver it is simple, its clean, it works.

 

Avatars ending on the other hand destroys any sense of character development the movie had going for it in the proceeding 2 hours and 30 minutes. We have this character and it has been set up that he is going to have to choose between humanity and re-gaining the use of his legs but betraying his love vs turning on his fellow humans for the love of his life and by doing so will more than likely never walk again either with or without his Avatar (as they are hardly going to let him keep his avatar are they). It's an interesting conundrum which the ending of his consciousness being transferred to his Avatar permanently by some tree hugging hippy mumbo jumbo ruins. There was no consequence for Jake in the end choosing the path that he did. Everything worked out just fine via some BS get out of jail free hippy shit. It simply did not work for me.

[dashrendar44]

Jurassic Park's ending is just tongue-in-cheek and ironic at best (The creature that created madness in JP is not the T-Rex, it's human being. First, John Hammond with his godlike delusion of grandeur and then Dennis Nedry shutting down the whole system for greed unleashing punishment. It's the old cautionary tale about Man's foolishness to play mad scientist since Shelley's Frankenstein at least).

 

Avatar's ending is more meaningful about what make us human and alien/estranged in your own body that transcend appearance, culture differences/mental boundaries and skin envelope. There is more humanity to be found in those so called savage blue aliens than in those so-called civilized modern men.

Edited April 26, 2013 by dashrendar44

[Accursed Arachnid!™]

No contest. I like Avatar a lot, but it's easily JP for me*

 

*But I completely understand if you were younger than 25 when you saw it and love it more than JP.

[John Marston]

it is not nostalgia for me. I honestly prefer JP over Avatar. Surely seeing JP blown up on the big screen in 3D would have magnified the faults but instead it just confirmed to me that it was better

[Phil in the Blank]

Jurassic Park's ending is just tongue-in-cheek and ironic at best (The creature that created madness in JP is not the T-Rex, it's human being. First, John Hammond with his godlike delusion of grandeur and then Dennis Nedry shutting down the whole system for greed unleashing punishment. It's the old cautionary tale about Man's foolishness to play mad scientist since Shelley's Frankenstein at least).

 

Avatar's ending is more meaningful about what make us human and alien/estranged in your own body that transcend appearance, culture differences/mental boundaries and skin envelope. There is more humanity to be found in those so called savage blue aliens than in those so-called civilized modern men.

 

I found Avatar's portrayal of man kinda insulting to be honest. Could they had made us any more one dimensional? The nobel savage is of course, a myth. They were as savage as us white fellas and possibly quite a bit more in many ways. I'm not expecting a mainstream blockbuster movie to actually give us a more equal representation on this front, but the whole thing just bores me when I have to sit through it one more time.

 

There was no transcending of culture and other differences, there was Jake Scully shedding his human skin and embracing the Navi. He felt their culture was better because he enjoyed blue cat like pussy so much. Can't say I blame him. I'ld give my humanity up to tap that too. Ultimately Avatar fails at what you are saying it succeeds at IMO. If you want a movie that actually succeeds at transcending culture and appearance etc, try District 9. It was from the same year as Avatar and a much superior film to it (and Jurassic Park for that matter)

 

However I think we will just have to agree to disagree. And thats fine mate, you are free to have shit taste

[Accursed Arachnid!™]

It may be nostalgia talking but I'll take in your face entertainment over being force fed "art".

 

My only problem with Cameron's Avatar is that it has the feeling Cam couldn't help but feel it was brilliant and original, rather than fully embracing it as being a fresh and entertaining take on what's come before(which is what it absolutely was). Spielberg is a master of doing that. As was Lucas at the beginning of his career. The prequels were a great example of what happens when you do not approach your craft with humility. I love most of Cameron's films, but there's a lack of warmth with Avatar caused by his disconnection that makes it hard to watch over and over. Although they are very rewatchable, there was some of that with his other films as well. Even T2.

[dashrendar44]

I found Avatar's portrayal of man kinda insulting to be honest. Could they had made us any more one dimensional? The nobel savage is of course, a myth. They were as savage as us white fellas and possibly quite a bit more in many ways. I'm not expecting a mainstream blockbuster movie to actually give us a more equal representation on this front, but the whole thing just bores me when I have to sit through it one more time.

 

There was no transcending of culture and other differences, there was Jake Scully shedding his human skin and embracing the Navi. He felt their culture was better because he enjoyed blue cat like pussy so much. Can't say I blame him. I'ld give my humanity up to tap that too. Ultimately Avatar fails at what you are saying it succeeds at IMO. If you want a movie that actually succeeds at transcending culture and appearance etc, try District 9. It was from the same year as Avatar and a much superior film to it (and Jurassic Park for that matter)

 

However I think we will just have to agree to disagree. And thats fine mate, you are free to have shit taste

 

 

 

District 9 is a racist movie that transcends nothing in the end. Being alien is a burden and disgusting, the human character only dreams of reverting back his condition.

 

You seem to mistake "humanity" notion for something else, Jake Sully didn't give up his humanity at the end. Being human does not stop to the skin envelope like you seem to think wrongfully so. Humanity in Avatar refer to the virtue.

 

Don't surprise me you loved that overrated movie that tries to be something it doesn't have the gravitas to pull off. It's the embodiment of your internet persona.

Edited April 26, 2013 by dashrendar44

[Phil in the Blank]

I shall give you props for the insult, no matter how off base it may be

 

How one could possibly think that District 9 is a racist movie compared to Avatar, when we have Avatar's white guilt and perfect 'savage's' bombarding us at every corner in that film, then you throw in the whole white saviour angle and yeah.....Clearly you try to make your opinions cultured and discerning, but are ultimately rather quite mad - much like the persona of display pic's character 

 

Edit for your Edit : District 9 was a much better portrayal of living in another species skin. Funny how being a member of an oppressed group is not liberating, it's horrible because the group is being constantly oppressed! By the film showing this to us as is, we get a real sense of just how bad judgmental behaviour really is. Of course the guy wants to go back to being human. *Duh*. But what he has learnt would change his heart for ever. He realises the error of his ways. It is a movie with real grit. Not this 'oooh big disney eyes we look so awesome  lol we are perfect in every way' shit that Cameron deals us up! No, District 9 gets us to identify and empathise with an alien race that looks and acts like complete ass to our eyes. It is a testament to the script.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Phil in the Darkness

[Ozymandias]

Hey, Armond White called District 9 racist!