Dreamworks Animation: What Went Wrong?

[AniNate]

Dreamworks tried to do the adult thing before with that "Father of the Pride" tv series that bombed hard. The studio that breaks through to the adult audience will likely have to be independent.

[iEye]

Bee Movie and Antz didn't do particularly well, plus some of their early 2D toons were big-time bombs

I wasn't really talking about the 2D stuff and as far as those two movies, they didn't do well but it's not like they lost huge dollars. I'm pretty sure with Antz they made tons on the DVD's. Edited September 11, 2012 by iEye

[Jonwo]

The Prince of Egypt was a success and made $200m WW which for a non Disney animated film was a success but their later 2D films were not successful. Given that DWA have dabbled with 2D with scenes in Kung Fu Panda and the upcoming Me and My Shadow, it would be good to see do a fully 2D film again.

[AniNate]

I wasn't really talking about the 2D stuff and as far as those two movies, they didn't do well but it's not like they lost huge dollars. I'm pretty sure with Antz they made tons on the DVD's.

They were still flops at the box office, though, which I'm pretty sure is what Firedeep was talking about.

[iEye]

All studios has its share of flops but there are flops and there are flops. If DW were to disappear today, I doubt the post-mortem would be talking about those so called flops. It's funny man, you are quick to jump to the slightest possible knock against Pixar but haven't the slightest problem participating in the narrative that DW is a lesser than and unworthy of its successes. BTW, I doubt Firedeep was talking about the past because this whole sub-thread started when he said this:

Too many animations being released in the same year and some gonna bomb.

[AniNate]

It's funny man, you are quick to jump to the slightest possible knock against Pixar but haven't the slightest problem participating in the narrative that DW is a lesser than and unworthy of its successes.

Because it's true :PI mean, considering that their best-reviewed film was only received as well as the 9th best-reviewed film from Pixar, they still have a long way to go before they can claim equal standing, both in quality and in popularity. Madagascar 3 may have been a vastly improved followup to its predecessors, but it was still nowhere near the quality Pixar normally puts out and was still beaten out by a relatively lesser effort from them domestically.I don't think any of the films on this schedule will be a colossal bomb like you seem to think Firedeep was implying, but I can certainly envision a situation where, with weak reviews and an oversaturated market, they could underperform like Bee Movie did. Edited September 11, 2012 by tribefan695

[iEye]

Ah yes, the old switcheroo. We go from a discussion about the box office to talking about reviews. You know as well as I that reviews means shit f'all as far as box office is concerned. You can't finance future movies with review accolades.I think DW is upping their game as opposed to your favorite who seems to resorting to DW's old playbook. A playbook that you once skewered DW for at every opportunity. You like to talk about the past victories and that's good but the past is no predictor of what will happen in the future especially with an overlord calling the shots.As far as your prediction about DW slate, I'm not surprised to hear that from you, it's expected. If there is to be some over-saturation, it will affect all players and not only those you dislike.

[AniNate]

Ah yes, the old switcheroo. We go from a discussion about the box office to talking about reviews. You know as well as I that reviews means shit f'all as far as box office is concerned. You can't finance future movies with review accolades.

Huh? I'm talking about both. Aside from the Shrek movies DW still isn't really on the same level as Pixar is at the box office, at least in the US. It's rare for Pixar movies to drop below $200 million, whereas a DW movie is considered a huge breakout if it just nicks that number.

I think DW is upping their game as opposed to your favorite who seems to resorting to DW's old playbook. A playbook that you once skewered DW for at every opportunity. You like to talk about the past victories and that's good but the past is no predictor of what will happen in the future especially with an overlord calling the shots.

I think it's too soon to know whether or not they're really upping their game. Sure, Rise of the Guardians seems to be a winner but that for a long time looked to be one of their more promising concepts, imo. And considering the lack of Best Picture-quality animated films this year, it remains to be seen just how good Guardians really is. To me their future slate remains an uncertainty as between the concepts and the creatives involved I'm not as prepared to anoint any of them as a Best Animated Feature contender (or a box office contender, for that matter, as the success of Dreamworks' movies tends to be very dependent on how they're received).

All I really know for sure is the past. Pixar's slate has an air of uncertainty to it too, but contrary to popular belief, I do see some actual ambition with it, especially with the Mind and Dia de Muertos projects. The things on Dreamworks' slate that I think come close to matching that ambition are the Mumbai Musical and Me and My Shadow, but again, the problems I have with those are the resumes of their directors/screenwriters, which are inconsistent at best.

As far as your prediction about DW slate, I'm not surprised to hear that from you, it's expected. If there is to be some over-saturation, it will affect all players and not only those you dislike.

That may be true, but this is the Dreamworks thread, and they're the ones who would be most responsible for that oversaturation should this schedule come to pass.

Edited September 11, 2012 by tribefan695

[iEye]

Huh? I'm talking about both. Aside from the Shrek movies DW still isn't really on the same level as Pixar is at the box office, at least in the US. It's rare for Pixar movies to drop below $200 million, whereas a DW movie is considered a huge breakout if it just nicks that number.

You made it about both but that's not were the conversation started. What you say above may be true but I wonder where all of those movies stand when you factor in budget. It's puzzling to me when people talk country by country numbers and reaching conclusion by it. Let's ask Fox or Disney/Pixar to give away the overseas box office receipts for Avatar, TA or TS3. Do you think they'd do it? What would your position be if a studio makes a movie for 50 million dollar and makes a billion dollar overseas but barely makes anything stateside. Would you go around calling it a failure? If someone asks you how much money you have, do you only count what's in your left pocket?As far as DW future movies goes, I'm intrigued by a few of them but mostly with Croods, Me and My Shadow and Trolls (because I'm pretty sure it will based on the Bromeliad Trilogy). I'm less hot on the musical because I'm not a fan of the genre and also because I don't think it'll translate well outside of India. And for Pixar I think the Dinosaur movie looks interesting. I'm hoping MU is good but without Boo it's got an uphill battle because she was the heart of that movie.

That may be true, but this is the Dreamworks thread, and they're the ones who would be most responsible for that oversaturation should this schedule come to pass.

If you think the house of cards will crumble because DW makes one more movie a year then I have to wonder what your take is on what Marvel is doing for the superhero genre. I'm curious to me that when DW announcement came through that your "envied" it but now the thinking is different. I guess it's Jekyll and Hyde in you. A little while ago, Whoot, suggested that maybe Disney would buyout DW and put Katzenberg at the helm of the company when Iger retires. I bet if that prediction were to happen all of the ilk you have against DW would vaporize. Edited September 11, 2012 by iEye

[AniNate]

Let's ask Fox or Disney/Pixar to give away the overseas box office receipts for Avatar, TA or TS3. Do you think they'd do it? What would your position be if a studio makes a movie for 50 million dollar and makes a billion dollar overseas but barely makes anything stateside.

But the vast majority of the time that has been the case with animated films is with sequels. Is that a business model anyone really wants Pixar to follow? I think Pixar fans would agree that if they were forced to choose between retaining high quality and high box office, they would go with the former, and I would hope Pixar is more proud of Brave than Cars 2 even though it made less money overall. Apologies to the rest of the world, but America really does have the most refined taste when it comes to animated films, with the possible exception of Japan.

If you think the house of cards will crumble because DW makes one more movie a year then I have to wonder what your take is on what Marvel is doing for the superhero genre.

That is not what I said at all. I just expect audiences will become a lot more choosy about what they see in a theater if there are big budget animated films coming out every two months, and if something DW does turns out to be a subpar effort, it will suffer a lot more than it might have under a less dense schedule, and that goes for the other studios too.For the record, I am intrigued by the other projects too, but there's a difference between being intrigued by a film and expecting it to be a masterpiece. Dreamworks has yet to earn that kind of reputation. Edited September 11, 2012 by tribefan695

[iEye]

But the vast majority of the time that has been the case with animated films is with sequels. Is that a business model anyone really wants Pixar to follow? I think Pixar fans would agree that if they were forced to choose between retaining high quality and high box office, they would go with the former, and I would hope Pixar is more proud of Brave than Cars 2 even though it made less money overall.Apologies to the rest of the world, but America really does have the most refined taste when it comes to animated films, with the possible exception of Japan.

Again, you like to live in the past.What you as a fan want and what Disney decides to do are two different thing. I think the writing is on the wall as far as what Disney's new direction is and the evidence is MU, FN2 and TI2(probably) is happening. I don't need to tell you what JL used to say but now he's is singing another tune (or should I say chirp chirp for silence).As to your comment about the rest world, I won't touch the insensitive part except to say growth isn't happening here anymore so lets' not look a gift horse in the mouth. Oh wait, Pixar isn't popular there so let's do the political thing and downplay it. You'd make a good politician.

That is not what I said at all. I just expect audiences will become a lot more choosy about what they see in a theater if there are big budget animated films coming out every two months, and if something DW does turns out to be a subpar effort, it will suffer a lot more than it might have under a less dense schedule, and that goes for the other studios too.

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, wouldn't it be a Merry Christmas?" Oh wait, what did you say about the shellacking DW would get for putting three sequels in a row. We all have opinions and thoughts but you don't have to market cornered on being right all of the time. Edited September 11, 2012 by iEye

[AniNate]

Just so we're clear, my usual preference is to not compare Pixar and Dreamworks at all. They have different objectives and different styles and I think it's important that we have both voices in the industry. And I have an urge to punch anyone who uses "Dreamworks movie" to mean "shitty film". But as of right now Pixar still has the upper hand where it really counts and I'm not going to say otherwise until DW proves with their finished products they can make classic, unforgettable films at the same pace Pixar could.

Edited September 11, 2012 by tribefan695

[Gopher]

And I have an urge to punch anyone who uses "Dreamworks movie" to mean "shitty film".

I think Dreamworks will always have this stigma unfortunately. For the last few years most of their movies have been good, but not "Pixar good" (other people's words, not mine) and they before that had a lot of garbage movies between garbage Shrek sequels. And this schedule just gives the detractors more fuel for the "quality vs. quantity" argument.

[kayumanggi]

But the vast majority of the time that has been the case with animated films is with sequels. Is that a business model anyone really wants Pixar to follow? I think Pixar fans would agree that if they were forced to choose between retaining high quality and high box office, they would go with the former, and I would hope Pixar is more proud of Brave than Cars 2 even though it made less money overall.

Apologies to the rest of the world, but America really does have the most refined taste when it comes to animated films, with the possible exception of Japan.

That is not what I said at all. I just expect audiences will become a lot more choosy about what they see in a theater if there are big budget animated films coming out every two months, and if something DW does turns out to be a subpar effort, it will suffer a lot more than it might have under a less dense schedule, and that goes for the other studios too.

For the record, I am intrigued by the other projects too, but there's a difference between being intrigued by a film and expecting it to be a masterpiece. Dreamworks has yet to earn that kind of reputation.

Not in 2004 and 2007. lol

[iEye]

Yeah, but the guy make a distinction "non-sequels" but his expectation is that Pixar always takes the high (better) road. A true politicians who slices and dices.

[kayumanggi]

I think the only year when DW released a better movie over Pixar was in 2011. KUNG FU PANDA ll was better than CARS ll. 2010 was very close IMO.

[AniNate]

Again, you like to live in the past.

What you as a fan want and what Disney decides to do are two different thing. I think the writing is on the wall as far as what Disney's new direction is and the evidence is MU, FN2 and TI2(probably) is happening. I don't need to tell you what JL used to say but now he's is singing another tune (or should I say chirp chirp for silence).

I fail to see how these sequel announcements say anything about the quality of the films themselves. I don't mind sequels as long as some great writing has gone into it, but that has not always been the case, and it's unfair to use examples of lesser sequels outgrossing better-received originals to support the notion that Dreamworks is now a superior animation studio to Pixar.

As to your comment about the rest world, I won't touch the insensitive part except to say growth isn't happening here anymore so lets' not look a gift horse in the mouth. Oh wait, Pixar isn't popular there so let's do the political thing and downplay it. You'd make a good politician.

The thing is animated sequels almost always gross more overseas than their predecessors regardless of their quality. That goes for every studio's films, not just Dreamworks. So I'd rather not base a studio's success on the public's desire to eat up its sequels, and that requires disregarding the number of them churned out by Dreamworks (and Blue Sky and Pixar) that have been made huge hits overseas. Are you seriously going to tell me that Ice Age 3 is superior to almost all Pixar films just because it made more money overseas? Don't be ridiculous. Believe me when I say it didn't please me that Cars 2 benefited from that factor, too.

I'll give you Shrek, Madagascar and KFP as examples of original Dreamworks movies breaking out huge worldwide. But that's just three movies, maybe four if you count HTTYD which did lesser but still solid business. Still not comparable to Pixar.

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, wouldn't it be a Merry Christmas?" Oh wait, what did you say about the shellacking DW would get for putting three sequels in a row. We all have opinions and thoughts but you don't have to market cornered on being right all of the time.

Look, I was wrong and I've acknowledged that numerous times, but I had a very good excuse for thinking that way. No one expected Madagascar 3 to get such solid WOM. We'll never know how it would've done had it only been received as well or worse than the first two, but looking at Ice Age 4's performance it seems I very well may have been right had it been received differently.

Besides, you're making the same kind of presumptions with Pixar, assuming that just because they're now making more sequels -- to better films that are much farther apart from each other on the schedule -- that all of a sudden their quality (or box office, I'm honestly not sure which) will fall to sub-Dreamworks level.

It seems the main point you're arguing is that Dreamworks' future looks better than Pixar's. There is no right answer to that because we don't know how any of these films will turn out. So yes, I am "living in the past" and I don't see a damn thing wrong with that. And since they both have more sequels on the table I think it's pointless to debate who is being the more "Dreamworksy" of the two.

Edited September 12, 2012 by tribefan695

[AniNate]

Not in 2004 and 2007. lol

Well, they were the two biggest films overseas too. And we did react to the crappiness of the third more dramatically than abroad. Edited September 12, 2012 by tribefan695

[iEye]

I fail to see how these sequel announcements say anything about the quality of the films themselves. I don't mind sequels as long as some great writing has gone into it, but that has not always been the case, and it's unfair to use examples of lesser sequels outgrossing better-received originals to support the notion that Dreamworks is now a superior animation studio to Pixar.

Everyone who has read your comments here knows what your position is/was on sequels but I guess Pixar has changed its mind so yours has naturally changed as well. BTW, do you remember the little known movie Cars2 and how much they spent (200m) to make it? You would think making that much of an investment would result in a better quality movie.

The thing is animated sequels almost always gross more overseas than their predecessors regardless of their quality. That goes for every studio's films, not just Dreamworks. Are you seriously going to tell me that Ice Age 3 is superior to almost all Pixar films just because it made more money overseas? Don't be ridiculous. Believe me when I say it didn't please me that Cars 2 benefited from that factor, too.

I'll give you Shrek, Madagascar and KFP as examples of original Dreamworks movies breaking out huge overseas. But that's just three movies, maybe four if you count HTTYD which did lesser but still solid business. Still not comparable to Pixar.

All money that comes into the coffers eventually turns into green. I know Pixar movies doesn't usually do well overseas but when that changes (and it will sooner or later) I'm sure Disney/Pixar will not be so dismissing of it.

It seems the main point you're arguing is that Dreamworks' future looks better than Pixar's. There is no right answer to that because we don't know how any of these films will turn out. So yes, I am "living in the past" and I don't see a damn thing wrong with that. And since they both have more sequels on the table I think it's pointless to debate who is being the more "Dreamworksy" of the two.

That isn't the argument at all, it is you who feels that Pixar is superior and if isn't like TS3 then the next best thing is that it wins domestically. If it doesn't win either market than the argument falls back to the quality or sequel argument. You have all the based (excuses) covered.

[AniNate]

Everyone who has read your comments here knows what your position is/was on sequels but I guess Pixar has changed its mind so yours has naturally changed as well. BTW, do you remember the little known movie Cars2 and how much they spent (200m) to make it? You would think making that much of an investment would result in a better quality movie.

I honestly don't remember myself saying that I hate any and all sequels. If you're just going back to what I said about Dreamworks' slate last year for that evidence, that was more out of annoyance with the Madagascar franchise plus the disappointing take of Kung Fu Panda 2. It was an educated prediction, nothing more. I would certainly prefer they make original films, but they do have some coming up, so I'm not as concerned by the sequels and have confidence they'll be able to pull them off.

And yeah, I'm disappointed that Pixar spent $200 million on a shitty film. But it's surely common knowledge by now that there is very little correlation between quality and production budget and I don't think a film's terribleness is more excusable just because less money was spent on it.

That isn't the argument at all, it is you who feels that Pixar is superior and if isn't like TS3 then the next best thing is that it wins domestically. If it doesn't win either market than the argument falls back to the quality or sequel argument. You have all the based (excuses) covered.

I think you can only compare original vs. original/sequel vs. sequel, yes. I won't deny that Shrek 2 was much more successful than Toy Story 3, but if you're trying to compare something like Madagascar 3 vs. Brave, you do have to consider the sequel factor.

You obviously disagree with my assertion, so why don't you provide some actual facts instead of attacking me personally? I mean, even if I included the sequels and left out the 2D/Aardman movies (and I really don't see this as any less biased), Pixar still averages out to earn more worldwide.

Edited September 12, 2012 by tribefan695