The Little Mermaid | Disney | May 26, 2023 | Queen Halle will rule the summer!

[ZattMurdock]

1 minute ago, Deathlife said:

Probably none since that same role is going to be filled by someone very soon.

 

I'm not sure why it was even posted here, it has nothing to do with TLM or box office.

The only place I’ve seen this remotely linked to The Little Mermaid was from the usual far right sewers and dishearteningly enough, here on BOT. We need to do better than subquoting Breitbart bullshit around here. Calling out this shit is important because it’s obvious, pathetic and laughable disinformation. BOT has always proud itself as a source of actual good film conversation. We need to be better than this shit.

[Deathlife]

2 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

The only place I’ve seen this remotely linked to The Little Mermaid was from the usual far right sewers and dishearteningly enough, here on BOT. We need to do better than subquoting Breitbart bullshit around here. Calling out this shit is important because it’s obvious, pathetic and laughable disinformation. BOT has always proud itself as a source of actual good film conversation. We need to be better than this shit.

Agreed.

 

We need to be careful where we get our news from.  Social media (especially post-pandemic) has been dominated by right-wing reactionaries that just put out mindless, meaningless, hateful garbage. Seriously, some of these guys are saying the Oceangate submarine accident was due to wokeness because the owner said some years ago that he didn't want recruit ex-Navy guys that generally happen to be "50-year-old white guys" (the irony of this being that his company wasn't at all diverse and he did in fact employ primarily white people to run the biz).

 

I think people are talking about the diversity chief role because of Disney's representation of minorities in their movies.  If folks think Disney will back away from what they are doing, then they are going to be disappointed.

Aladdin had a diverse cast with a black man (Will Smith) front and center of the marketing and the movie made over a billion dollars. The Lion King had a mostly black voice cast and that made well over a billion. Even the Jungle Book had a diverse voice cast and an Indian boy in the main role.  Heck, The Little Mermaid animated series has a mermaid that on the surface even looks darker than Halle Bailey, that is Disney basically telling folks "we don't give a fuck!" LOLOL.

 

Disney isn't going to change the movie side of things considering the company makes a metric ton from their core business which is parks. Anyone thinking that because TLM made just "half a billion" that Disney will back away from what they are doing isn't being realistic. All these movies are about verticals and ancillary sources of revenue. TLM might not make a profit for the film arm but it will definitely generate money from other sources for them.

 

The TLM doll was a top-seller some months ago - www.etonline.com, so Disney is probably seeing some impact with their decision that we on the outside won't see (as an aside, the high toy sales isn't a surprise considering younger audiences in North America are much more diverse than older ones, that is Disney making some calculated bets).

[Fijif]

11 hours ago, ZattMurdock said:

I’m not questioning your knowledge about Japan’s box office. We all know that Japan is a different market than let’s say Brazil. But that doesn’t change the fact that The Little Mermaid is actually doing very well overseas, despite all the vitriol and the "pundits" claiming it’s somehow a great failure actually. We live in a different world than the one we lived before the pandemic, and no, an Afro-American woman at a position of power at Walt Disney leaving the company to pursue other endeavors doesn’t mean that a "change is coming". In fact, it’s clear to me that bringing more diversity to Walt Disney’s films as a whole, either when it comes to their princesses to Lucasfilm and Marvel Studios has been proven to be an astounding success, regardless what you cryptically tries to imply / wish with that post I’ve quoted above.

It hasn't done very well overseas. It has done 'very well' compared to two of the biggest markets actively rejecting it. They expected this move to do over $1 billion. It is barely scraping to half that. One only needs to look at the complete disarray that is Disney right now to know they are heading into some rough times. 

[Fijif]

11 minutes ago, Deathlife said:

 

The TLM doll was a top-seller some months ago - www.etonline.com, so Disney is probably seeing some impact with their decision that we on the outside won't see (as an aside, the high toy sales isn't a surprise considering younger audiences in North America are much more diverse than older ones, that is Disney making some calculated bets).

Oh no, a limited edition BARBIE sold out. Limited as in artificially limited supply to make it appear as if it were in demand. This is hardly evidence of anything. 

[Fijif]

2 hours ago, Bob Train said:

The same people saying TLM is actually doing great said it would make a billion before it released lol. It is a huge disappointment. I thought it would make 700-800m for sure.

Thats why they have to bark about merchandise and how well it is performing relative to the complete non hit that this movie was everywhere else. Funny how they are only celebrating $500 million because this movie is running out of gas and they know it. Hell, they would've celebrated if it only made $400 million. It's still a huge loss for Disney either way and will be out of theaters soon. 

[ZattMurdock]

6 minutes ago, Fijif said:

It hasn't done very well overseas. It has done 'very well' compared to two of the biggest markets actively rejecting it. They expected this move to do over $1 billion. It is barely scraping to half that. One only needs to look at the complete disarray that is Disney right now to know they are heading into some rough times. 

Nice burner account. Say what you really feel, amigo. Also, where are all these wild projections to $1B? And who are ‘they’? Woke Disney is what you mean? And what about my post you have just quoted has to do with what you are saying? So you are telling us that Disney is in "complete disarray" like the weirdos from the far right keep tweeting because this didn’t make $1B? Like… I don’t even know what to tell you. Disney makes their business decisions based on data and market research. They knew exactly what they were going for with this one, there is no trade talks about how this is seen as a failure by Disney, all you have is far right rags spewing this shit. You can keep saying Earth is flat all day and every day, but that won’t make the big claims based on baseless conspiracy bullshit reality, mate. Regardless how many times you repeat it or how many accounts you create it here. Which is kinda sad, to be honest.

[Deathlife]

22 minutes ago, Fijif said:

Oh no, a limited edition BARBIE sold out. Limited as in artificially limited supply to make it appear as if it were in demand. This is hardly evidence of anything. 

 

Where did you get that "artificially limited supply".

 

LOL, you literally just made that up.

[von Kenni]

14 hours ago, ZattMurdock said:

I don’t see how you can actually link a Diversity officer linked to Walt Disney as a whole leaving her position - not really related particularly to their films whatsoever - would have anything to do with The Little Mermaid’s performance, but maybe we both are having a lost in translation moment here.
 

What I mean is that no, that is clearly not related to The Little Mermaid’s  box office or profit as a franchise, that obviously goes far beyond what this film makes at the box office. Maybe you are getting some right wing western sources that link that to The Little Mermaid but that’s laughably wrong. I’d advise sticking most with trade sources because at least from the way I see it, putting these two together like it means something is just replicating what a lot of the right wing media is trying to spin it as factual, when that’s not how this works. I apologize since I believe English isn’t your first language - it isn’t mine either, but at same time I can understand how hard it is to filter news in the internet is this days lately - but that post of yours kinda replicated a message that is baseless and politically skewed to represent the "go woke, go broke" mentality from western right wing circles.

 

3 hours ago, ZattMurdock said:

I never said one thing about this film before seeing people go out of their fucking way to try discredit its box office run. It’s odd and embarrassing at this point. BOT has seen better days, it’s important to contextualize box office  from a market still recovering from the abysmal pandemic days. For what it’s worth, I don’t see how anyone could call the box office run of this film added to the insane amount of merch around it a failure. I’d actually even dare to argue that this film made more in merch for Walt Disney than any of the live action adaptations that came before, including The Lion King. It’s an obvious ideologically fueled debate about a Disney princess, which seems incredibly hilarious and weird it’s even happening.

 

3 hours ago, ZattMurdock said:

The only place I’ve seen this remotely linked to The Little Mermaid was from the usual far right sewers and dishearteningly enough, here on BOT. We need to do better than subquoting Breitbart bullshit around here. Calling out this shit is important because it’s obvious, pathetic and laughable disinformation. BOT has always proud itself as a source of actual good film conversation. We need to be better than this shit.

 

2 hours ago, ZattMurdock said:

Nice burner account. Say what you really feel, amigo. Also, where are all these wild projections to $1B? And who are ‘they’? Woke Disney is what you mean? And what about my post you have just quoted has to do with what you are saying? So you are telling us that Disney is in "complete disarray" like the weirdos from the far right keep tweeting because this didn’t make $1B? Like… I don’t even know what to tell you. Disney makes their business decisions based on data and market research. They knew exactly what they were going for with this one, there is no trade talks about how this is seen as a failure by Disney, all you have is far right rags spewing this shit. You can keep saying Earth is flat all day and every day, but that won’t make the big claims based on baseless conspiracy bullshit reality, mate. Regardless how many times you repeat it or how many accounts you create it here. Which is kinda sad, to be honest.

 

Zatt, I hear your frustrations and share your dislike of publications such as Breitbart.

 

That said, from my perspective, there has been a lot of "calling out" people's intentions that look one-dimensional and generalized under this and other topics. This forum is full of people with diverse backgrounds, personal histories, worldviews, and the cultures they've lived and breathed in. If you don't know these things about each of the people, it's quite a leap to understand their intentions or to put them into some generalized buckets.

 

Maybe some here have even those extreme racist intentions but to generalize all analysis or criticism toward TLM or Disney to the same "Calling out this shit is important" category just shuts down the idea of Forum. It isn't constructive. And analysis or criticism that you might not like isn't automatically "hating".

 

I have concerns about modern diversity, equity, and inclusion trends in Hollywood and society at large. Not so much about the goals but the methods which I see in many cases as counterproductive, self-defeating, and divisive. I don't want to start a larger conversation about this but I want to bring up that I don't think this way because of Breitbart, some "right-wing rage YouTubers", or some shallow internet sources. I have my own diverse personal background, lived and breathed in different cultures, gained multicultural work experiences, and I'm a lover of history where I see a lot of parallels to what is happening now.

 

If you want, go ahead and label me as a right-winger or racist but I don't see myself in those buckets.

 

I hope we can focus more on the arguments rather than labeling each of us or throwing passive-aggressive remarks at each other. Daryl Davis, a blues musician, has said that regardless of background ultimately everyone on Earth wants the five same things: to be loved, respected, heard, treated fairly, and their families treated the same as everyone else's. Daryl, a black man, showed an example when he befriended KKK members and got them to denounce their membership. He used those five things to build bridges between different, even clashing worldviews.

 

Maybe we could do here the same to make each other feel at least respected and heard.

[Issac Newton]

16 hours ago, ZattMurdock said:

— snip —

I know my source well but shouldn't have posted here but on Disney Thread.

 

16 hours ago, ZattMurdock said:

but that post of yours kinda replicated a message that is baseless and politically skewed to represent the "go woke, go broke" mentality from western right wing circles.

Not a mindset of that, but clearly not a supportive of "Need to consume Disney Products or you are a _______ person". I can see how our products sells outside Asia. (I am a person who certainly wants Non English Films to flourish across Anglosphere and LATAM. Also majority of post links with non-English Films) So, Kinda will be helpful for people to accept that how things doesn't work on certain region without linking hates and trolls.

 

Well, it's my mistake of posting here. I am sorry.

[nydedan]

what is this thread lol

[Deathlife]

8 hours ago, von Kenni said:

 

 

 

 

Zatt, I hear your frustrations and share your dislike of publications such as Breitbart.

 

That said, from my perspective, there has been a lot of "calling out" people's intentions that look one-dimensional and generalized under this and other topics. This forum is full of people with diverse backgrounds, personal histories, worldviews, and the cultures they've lived and breathed in. If you don't know these things about each of the people, it's quite a leap to understand their intentions or to put them into some generalized buckets.

 

Maybe some here have even those extreme racist intentions but to generalize all analysis or criticism toward TLM or Disney to the same "Calling out this shit is important" category just shuts down the idea of Forum. It isn't constructive. And analysis or criticism that you might not like isn't automatically "hating".

 

I have concerns about modern diversity, equity, and inclusion trends in Hollywood and society at large. Not so much about the goals but the methods which I see in many cases as counterproductive, self-defeating, and divisive. I don't want to start a larger conversation about this but I want to bring up that I don't think this way because of Breitbart, some "right-wing rage YouTubers", or some shallow internet sources. I have my own diverse personal background, lived and breathed in different cultures, gained multicultural work experiences, and I'm a lover of history where I see a lot of parallels to what is happening now.

 

If you want, go ahead and label me as a right-winger or racist but I don't see myself in those buckets.

 

I hope we can focus more on the arguments rather than labeling each of us or throwing passive-aggressive remarks at each other. Daryl Davis, a blues musician, has said that regardless of background ultimately everyone on Earth wants the five same things: to be loved, respected, heard, treated fairly, and their families treated the same as everyone else's. Daryl, a black man, showed an example when he befriended KKK members and got them to denounce their membership. He used those five things to build bridges between different, even clashing worldviews.

 

Maybe we could do here the same to make each other feel at least respected and heard.

 

I can't speak for Zatt but this topic is a loaded topic.

 

The thing is, stuff like "DEI " just like "ESG" and "woke" are now right-wing buzzwords. They use them as coded language to hide much uglier words. I've lived in the US before and now Iive in Canada, so I know exactly how some people talk about this stuff. You need to understand the historical opposition to diversity in US media and how much effort it has taken to get to where we are today. Stuff like an interracial kiss on Star Trek and minority children on Sesame Street were viewed as divisive before. Black Panther comics couldnt be sold in the South and the list goes on. if the creators back then had cowed to people worried about diversity, we'd be living in a very different world today. Perception shapes reality and the media plays a very strong role in how people are ultimately accepted. A single movie (Birth of a Nation) led to a surge in KKK activity, that's how powerful this stuff is. Once people are given a voice, then people start to listen. Media in the US is only going to get more diverse as the country is a melting pot of races. Most children in the US today aren't white, so the rest of the world will have to get used to seeing more diverse media coming out of the US.

 

The current push against diversity is simply out of great replacement fears. It was a fringe theory that's become mainstream. The fear is ultimately that white people are being replaced. While no one want to see their race disappear, blaming entertainment companies for a greater societal trend is ridiculously stupid. Target isn't making children gay, Disney isn't turning kids Trans, Bud-light is turning people Trans, what people should be angry at is how late-stage capitalism has turned people into human tools and created a society where having and raising kids is now super-expensive. Day care costs are crazy expensive in this part of the world and having kids is a project.

 

The real question that people need to answer and it's a question only they can answer is why seeing other people from different races,sexuality or ethnicities in certain roles a problem in the first place. Ariel for example is entirely fictional and non-human so her race is a total non-factor. The problem is too many people are subscribing to the coded messaging i mentioned earlier. It was staggering to see 40 year old men on the internet freaking out because of a black Mermaid. How does that affect anyone? The movie's success in the US just further stresses my point that the US is a very diverse society and despite the loud complaining, a good chunk of people simply don't have a problem with black mermaids.

 

Hollywood's push for representation in movies is media isn't divisive as much as it is them reflecting a diverse society.  The US in particular is a melting pot of races and cultures and it just doesn't make sense to produce movies or media that doesn't reflect this. I'm not a fan of Disney remakes but not because of diversity or anything like that and if people want to criticize those films on their artistic merit then that's fine but when folks attack the lead actress for her race then that's an entirely different discussion. I don't believe TLM didn't do well in some parts of Asia because of a black Ariel, it more than likely has to do with how Disney has conditioned parts of its audience to wait for this stuff on streaming as well as TLM not being as big a property as other Disney properties.

 

Lastly, I think what Daryl Davis is doing is wrong. It's not the oppressed responsibility to reach out to their oppressors. It's non-white people's responsibility to address and adjust racism and racist attitudes towards black people and not the other way round. Too many people are passing down their racism to their kids and that shit needs to stop.

[Eric Loves Rey]

Moderation

 

I said we were done with these pointless convos where nobody will listen to each other and I mean it. When I say "stop", you stop. Next time, anybody who continues fighting over this movie and relitigate these fights will see a threadban. Thank you.

[Krissykins]

14 hours ago, Fijif said:

and will be out of theaters soon. 

…how soon? 
 

It’s week 5 and made $8.6m. 
 

Edit: woops just seen Eric’s message. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Krissykins

[PlatnumRoyce]

15 hours ago, Deathlife said:

Exactly.

One only needs to go back to check the posts during the movie's opening weekend.

 

I don't think anyone is even saying TLM has been a blockbuster success but from its low overseas opening, it's held extremely well.

Can't we just directly measure legs? How is it holding relative to similar movies with similar openings?

[Fijif]

15 hours ago, ZattMurdock said:

Nice burner account. Say what you really feel, amigo. Also, where are all these wild projections to $1B? And who are ‘they’? Woke Disney is what you mean? And what about my post you have just quoted has to do with what you are saying? So you are telling us that Disney is in "complete disarray" like the weirdos from the far right keep tweeting because this didn’t make $1B? Like… I don’t even know what to tell you. Disney makes their business decisions based on data and market research. They knew exactly what they were going for with this one, there is no trade talks about how this is seen as a failure by Disney, all you have is far right rags spewing this shit. You can keep saying Earth is flat all day and every day, but that won’t make the big claims based on baseless conspiracy bullshit reality, mate. Regardless how many times you repeat it or how many accounts you create it here. Which is kinda sad, to be honest.

Whoa, way to put words in my mouth. Not once did I say 'woke.' This movie was expected to do gangbusters like all the other Disney remakes, so yes, Disney was expecting it to crest to $1 billion; otherwise, they wouldn't have invested almost $400 million into production and marketing. You are inserting politics in this to hide that this movie flopped - this isn't a political statement as much as you try to make it one. Movies fail. Politics need not be involved. The audiences were not interested. Simple as that. Disney doesn't care about market research because if they did they wouldn't be releasing Indy 5 or Elemental. No one cares about these movies. Sadly, you have to talk about far-right this and racism when the fact of the matter is that the numbers don't lie. This movie flopped. Please support an argument that isn't just attempting to be edgy and filled with meaningless whataboutisms and strawmen. 

[Fijif]

15 hours ago, Deathlife said:

 

Where did you get that "artificially limited supply".

 

LOL, you literally just made that up.

Do you know what 'limited edition' means? It means they only produce a LIMITED amount and that's it.

[ZattMurdock]

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by ZattMurdock

[Eric Loves Rey]

Moderation

 

@Fijif has been threadbanned for 24 hours for not listening and continuing to fight with other users. Next time, please listen.

[von Kenni]

4 hours ago, Deathlife said:

 

I can't speak for Zatt but this topic is a loaded topic.

 

The thing is, stuff like "DEI " just like "ESG" and "woke" are now right-wing buzzwords. They use them as coded language to hide much uglier words. I've lived in the US before and now Iive in Canada, so I know exactly how some people talk about this stuff. You need to understand the historical opposition to diversity in US media and how much effort it has taken to get to where we are today. Stuff like an interracial kiss on Star Trek and minority children on Sesame Street were viewed as divisive before. Black Panther comics couldnt be sold in the South and the list goes on. if the creators back then had cowed to people worried about diversity, we'd be living in a very different world today. Perception shapes reality and the media plays a very strong role in how people are ultimately accepted. A single movie (Birth of a Nation) led to a surge in KKK activity, that's how powerful this stuff is. Once people are given a voice, then people start to listen. Media in the US is only going to get more diverse as the country is a melting pot of races. Most children in the US today aren't white, so the rest of the world will have to get used to seeing more diverse media coming out of the US.

 

The current push against diversity is simply out of great replacement fears. It was a fringe theory that's become mainstream. The fear is ultimately that white people are being replaced. While no one want to see their race disappear, blaming entertainment companies for a greater societal trend is ridiculously stupid. Target isn't making children gay, Disney isn't turning kids Trans, Bud-light is turning people Trans, what people should be angry at is how late-stage capitalism has turned people into human tools and created a society where having and raising kids is now super-expensive. Day care costs are crazy expensive in this part of the world and having kids is a project.

 

The real question that people need to answer and it's a question only they can answer is why seeing other people from different races,sexuality or ethnicities in certain roles a problem in the first place. Ariel for example is entirely fictional and non-human so her race is a total non-factor. The problem is too many people are subscribing to the coded messaging i mentioned earlier. It was staggering to see 40 year old men on the internet freaking out because of a black Mermaid. How does that affect anyone? The movie's success in the US just further stresses my point that the US is a very diverse society and despite the loud complaining, a good chunk of people simply don't have a problem with black mermaids.

 

Hollywood's push for representation in movies is media isn't divisive as much as it is them reflecting a diverse society.  The US in particular is a melting pot of races and cultures and it just doesn't make sense to produce movies or media that doesn't reflect this. I'm not a fan of Disney remakes but not because of diversity or anything like that and if people want to criticize those films on their artistic merit then that's fine but when folks attack the lead actress for her race then that's an entirely different discussion. I don't believe TLM didn't do well in some parts of Asia because of a black Ariel, it more than likely has to do with how Disney has conditioned parts of its audience to wait for this stuff on streaming as well as TLM not being as big a property as other Disney properties.

 

Lastly, I think what Daryl Davis is doing is wrong. It's not the oppressed responsibility to reach out to their oppressors. It's non-white people's responsibility to address and adjust racism and racist attitudes towards black people and not the other way round. Too many people are passing down their racism to their kids and that shit needs to stop.

 

(I assume our constructive conversation doesn't fall into Eric's definition of fighting views about TLM without listening to each other)

 

Thank you for taking the time with a thoughtful and well-thought-out reply. I agree with many things that you say such as the need for representation, and diversity, and that there are some people having that great replacement fear and popular media/cultural effects in history and the present day. But I also see your view as slightly one-dimensional and simplistic. I see much more degrees and nuances and my original comment here was the hope that we don't label each other into polarized two opposing camps but try to go the extra mile to hear each other in a respectful way, especially when discussing a potentially loaded topic. I thank you for the extra mile that you took. I know this discussion is getting off-topic but I want to just bring a bit of another perspective to try to argue those nuances.

 

I've followed US politics closely since the mid-90s, studied US history, infused myself with popular culture from the 40s to the present day, and now lived more or less since 2018 in Los Angeles while traveling around the US as well. I'm not an expert on these matters but there's hopefully some perspective worth sharing.

 

I understand how certain words and phrases can be used more by, or even originate from, certain groups but I also see a lot of fighting about definitions and ownership of language that gets in the way of constructive discussion.

 

I am a bit puzzled by how sometimes we paint a picture of US racial relations as we would be back in the 50s or 60s. The world has changed a lot and there's been a lot of progress. Saying that doesn't mean that all the challenges or problems have gone away. I understand some of the reasons for this kind of perception that might come from not knowing history, not having first-hand experience of the past, or not discussing it with a variety of people who lived in past times.

 

The great replacement theory is a thing for some people but I don't buy it as the reason for the majority of people. I could say that there are small extremes on the right and on the left regarding these issues while most are part of a more silent majority in between. But I think that is also a simplistic view partly born from the US two-party system and that reality is more diverse and nuanced.

 

For most people grumbling about diversity issues isn't inherently about wanting less diversity (even if they might have an outburst saying something like that) or fears against people looking different than themselves. I think many are disillusioned about the methods how to achieve diversity and representation. When they feel (rightfully or wrongfully) that it's becoming more about tokenism than merits, more about dividing into groups through positive discrimination rather than emphasizing and celebrating our common humanity, people get frustrated. And if they feel that they are judged and lectured, they repel. Some people feel that there is a dogmatic approach to advancing diversity, representation, and social justice matters today that silences different views. Name-calling and labeling all these views to some fringe extreme notions aren't helpful.

 

As an example of diversity and representation, in my home country, about 80% of political party leaders have been women for the past 10 years, the majority of cabinet ministers women, and the society at large is one of the most, if not the most, equal, egalitarian, and wealth-equal in the world. It didn't happen with the methods used for diversity and representation by favoritism and strict rules as what is happening in the US and some other countries. And my home country is also a free market capitalistic society.

 

At the same time, people have had in-group-based prejudices since there have been people. Around a hundred years ago people from the neighboring village where I grew up were thought to be foreigners and therefore not to be trusted. They mingled more and created meaningful relationships and now they feel like fellow citizens (oversimplification). If there is that kind of in-group-based bias between people of different color we tend to automatically interpret it as racism. And we can wish or want that bias to go away but something that has been there for millions of years isn't going away anytime soon. But if we understand it as one of the root causes of some of the actions, we might find ways to mitigate it without name-calling.

 

And there is a spectrum of these different views, grumblings, and in-group biases that aren't just restricted to whites, straight, 40-year-old men, etc but permeate through all colors of skin, genders, sexual orientations, ideological views, and so on. Vocal minorities online can create their own distorted perception of this.

 

I can understand how you see Daryl Davis' actions as wrong. I recognize that there are groups that are oppressed and oppressors and power differentials but those are not the lenses through which I make sense of the world at large. I see Daryl's actions emphasizing that common humanity which can work for us all when approaching each other.

 

(that was long, thank you to all who got through it

 

 

 

[WittyUsername]

$1.3 million on Monday. It’s holding pretty good.