Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse l June 2 2023 | Animators deserve better

[Cappoedameron]

16 minutes ago, BadOlCatSylvester said:

That cliffhanger is going to bite them in the ass. They should have made the ending of this more fulfilling and conclusive. The current one hinges on the next movie being out in less than a year.

I highly doubt it will bite them in the ass, most of the audience that I was there with didn't even know Beyond had a set release date. It also was a very fulfilling movie and concluded Gwen's arc in beautiful fashion.

 

This was literally Empire Strikes Back, where Han was in danger and the other team were going to go rescue him but that doesn't negate everything the movie had in it. 

 

Also the amount of media that leaves on cliffhangers nowadays that audiences have to wait YEARS for is ridiculous. This isn't the 80's and 90's anymore, audiences are groomed now to wait years for new seasons of their shows.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Cappoedameron

[cookie]

42 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

Why is it a fallacy if both you and me are openly criticizing them?

Because you've made multiple posts implying filmmakers being a pain in the ass is somehow an excusable part of the process that leads to them making great films... which is a fallacy.

 

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Why do you think we aren’t talking the very same thing, with the caveat that while I’m criticizing their creative process, I respect it? The way I see it, when we talk about artistic vision, we are talking about the animation process to the directors and in this particular case, the screenwriters and producers as well. 

But how does better planning compromise their artistic vision? All I've seen in the anecdotes is that they just seem sloppy and unfocused. Why can't they figure this stuff out while storyboarding? Why does Phil need to see finished renderings before he can start chopping stuff out? Hasn't he been in animation long enough to know how things work?

 

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I’m defending their artistic vision and their process, because I think it’s just too easy to put this on them.

The animators quoted in the article are putting a lot of this on them. And in case I need to repeat this for the sixth time or whatever, I'm putting a lot of it on Sony and the rest of the industry as well. People aren't only blaming them, but they do share a significant portion of the blame from everything we've seen.

 

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if the animators that worked on this project were part of an union like they should could actually vote between putting over Lord and Miller’s shit and getting majorly compensated for it with no crunch whatsoever

Lord & Miller's process CAUSES crunch. The animators say as much. You can't have no crunch without forcing L&M and likely Sony Pictures Animation as a whole to change their process. Your ideal scenario runs into a paradox since the "no crunch" outcome isn't possible without the source of it being addressed.

 

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or getting similar salaries than they had for ATSV with working conditions that would be a lot more smoother with Lord and Miller out of the picture, I honestly think they would prefer the first option because of the results of the first two films

 

Over a hundred animators quit the project. You know how much you forgo by quitting a project halfway through? The anecdotes talked about how several animators never wanted to work with those two ever again. Bigger paydays are just going to paint over the crux of the problem in the hope it doesn't worsen.

 

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But I think that it’s kinda shitty to shit on Lord’s and Miller’s process regardless if I don’t like how they got to their results.

People shit on their process because their process has apparent consequences for the people working on their films, and that should be taken as a bad thing regardless if the end result is the best movie ever or not.

 

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And somehow I doubt that you are so naive to believe Cameron has changed his ways and is a role model now. 

Then people should keep criticizing him for it. In fact, they should pile on him even more for being a liar. And even if Avatar 3: Firebending Boogaloo gets 99% on RT and makes a trillion worldwide, that still wouldn't justify it.

Edited June 23, 2023 by cookie

[WittyUsername]

I don’t think the cliffhanger ending here is such a big deal that we need to see how it ends as quickly as possible. I would say that about the ending of IW, but this movie’s ending isn’t quite as big of a doozy.

[ZattMurdock]

6 minutes ago, cookie said:

Because you've made multiple posts implying filmmakers being a pain in the ass is somehow an excusable part of the process that leads to them making great films... which is a fallacy.

 

But how does better planning compromise their artistic vision? All I've seen in the anecdotes is that they just seem sloppy and unfocused. Why can't they figure this stuff out while storyboarding? Why does Phil need to see finished renderings before he can start chopping stuff out? Hasn't he been in animation long enough to know how things work?

 

The animators quoted in the article are putting a lot of this on them. And in case I need to repeat this for the sixth time or whatever, I'm putting a lot of it on Sony and the rest of the industry as well. People aren't only blaming them, but they do share a significant portion of the blame from everything we've seen.

 

Lord & Miller's process CAUSES crunch. The animators say as much. You can't have no crunch without forcing L&M and likely Sony Pictures Animation as a whole to change their process. Your ideal scenario runs into a paradox since the "no crunch" outcome isn't possible without the source of it being addressed.

 

 

Over a hundred animators quit the project. You know how much you forgo by quitting a project halfway through? The anecdotes talked about how several animators never wanted to work with those two ever again. Bigger paydays are just going to paint over the crux of the problem in the hope it doesn't worsen.

 

People shit on their process because their process has apparent consequences for the people working on their films, and that should be taken as a bad thing regardless if the end result is the best movie ever or not.

 

Then people should keep criticizing him for it. In fact, they should pile on him even more for being a liar. And even if Avatar 3: Firebending Boogaloo gets 99% on RT and makes a trillion worldwide, that still wouldn't justify it.

Let’s throw the baby with the bath water then. Because that’s the likely result I’m starting to think it will happen here. Will it result on actual better work environments and like I’ve been advocating the most, better compensation to the actual animators and crew?  Fuck no. But at least we got ‘em, our outrage thirst is satisfied and evil is defeated. Sony wins either way.

Edited June 23, 2023 by ZattMurdock

[Cappoedameron]

8 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

I don’t think the cliffhanger ending here is such a big deal that we need to see how it ends as quickly as possible. I would say that about the ending of IW, but this movie’s ending isn’t quite as big of a doozy.

Also if this movie likes to draw back on the past movies we already saw in the first movie how Miles will escape the dire situation he's in. Peter B Parker was his mentor after all.

[ZattMurdock]

2 minutes ago, Cappoedameron said:

Also if this movie likes to draw back on the past movies we already saw in the first movie how Miles will escape the dire situation he's in. Peter B Parker was his mentor after all.

The cliffhanger is fine. I was mad at it - despite kinda knowing it was coming, so I can only imagine those that didn’t felt - but it was fine. I disagree with The Empire Strikes Back or Infinity War comparisons though, those were films with what I call perfect cliffhangers, because despite being cliffhangers they still tell a complete story. It’s more like Back to the Future II, but way better than that one.

[lorddemaxus]

20 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

I don’t think the cliffhanger ending here is such a big deal that we need to see how it ends as quickly as possible. I would say that about the ending of IW, but this movie’s ending isn’t quite as big of a doozy.

I feel like it is. The ending of Infinity War didn't leave us with the same kind of urgency the ending to this did. Sure, most of the Avengers died, but they didnt tease a way to get them back or whatever. Like Marvel could've easily made 10 more Marvel movies before releasing Endgame.

[cookie]

24 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

Let’s throw the baby with the bath water then. Because that’s the likely result I’m starting to think it will happen here. Will it result on actual better work environments and like I’ve been advocating the most, better compensation to the actual animators and crew?  Fuck no. But at least we got ‘em, our outrage thirst is satisfied and evil is defeated. Sony wins either way.

So you're saying L&M are completely incapable of changing their process, and the only alternatives are either firing them or letting them continue to treat their animators like dirt, but at least the animators get more money out of it. That's what I'm getting out of this.

 

I'm done with this convo, by the way. This is just going in circles and is getting tiring at this point.

Edited June 23, 2023 by cookie

[ZattMurdock]

Just now, cookie said:

So you're saying L&M are completely incapable of changing their process, and the only alternatives are either firing them or letting them continue to treat their animators like dirt, but at least the animators get more money out of it.

 

I'm done with this convo, by the way. This is just going in circles at this rate.

What I’m saying is that while I throughly dislike their process, I respect it. What I’m saying is that when we see how the sausage is made, it’s ugly and we are passionate about an industry that puts one hell lot of blood, sweat and tears from countless people, and I mean that from critical darlings to those films we like to punch down. What I’m saying is that since this is about their actual creative process and not really they being assholes that do even nastier shit to their crew, despite me disapproving their methods, I think we’d be naive to think that the end result would be as good as it is without it. 
 

Yes, they are "just movies". But it’s clear to me that from L&M to every single animator that worked on this, they are very passionate about their craft and those that have came publicly about this seem incredibly proud of working on these projects. So what I’m saying is that yes, money and better work conditions are the actual answer for this, not villifying the creatives, either those at the top or at the bottom of the food chain. 

[Flip]

Everyone can have their own opinions, but I don’t think anyone should be surprised by these news. It’s been known that Lord and Miller are perfectionists and constantly re-examine and redo parts of their movies; after all that’s why they got fired from Solo

[ZattMurdock]

13 minutes ago, Flip said:

Everyone can have their own opinions, but I don’t think anyone should be surprised by these news. It’s been known that Lord and Miller are perfectionists and constantly re-examine and redo parts of their movies; after all that’s why they got fired from Solo

I agree with Viewer Anon here:

 

And most of all:

 

I’ve been giving a special attention to the #SpiderVerseTeam tweets today as well. Yes thousands of VFX creators worked on this, at least 100 left according with the Vulture report and the situation is shitty as fuck. Lord and Miller look bad on this regardless how you put it, but clearly a lot of those that worked and aren’t shy to speak about their process on social media seem very proud of their work and keep sharing their processes - even those that didn’t make to the Final Cut - just like any other day. 
 

The answer to all this shit is unionize. And this is coming from someone that came out of this having very mixed feelings about Lord and Miller, despite how much I love the two films.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by ZattMurdock

[ZattMurdock]

 

[AniNate]

The thing that makes animation far more difficult to unionize is the reality that it's too easy for studios to just go elsewhere for labor if they don't want to agree to US terms. Ideally there would be some kind of international union but that's highly impractical in the current climate.

[ZattMurdock]

Return of the King:

 

[PrinceRico]

Best superhero movie returning to Imax. Lol at The Flash getting kicked out. 

[Bob Train]

LOL the cliffhanger is not gonna “bite them in the ass”. This is the second most profitable movie of the year. Sony’s most profitable since No Way Home. You have to be another level of out of touch to believe that. 

 

Beyond the Spider-Verse will make even more than Across the Spider-Verse precisely because of the discourse generated by the cliffhanger, and compounding goodwill from audiences.

[ZattMurdock]

36 minutes ago, Bob Train said:

LOL the cliffhanger is not gonna “bite them in the ass”. This is the second most profitable movie of the year. Sony’s most profitable since No Way Home. You have to be another level of out of touch to believe that. 

 

Beyond the Spider-Verse will make even more than Across the Spider-Verse precisely because of the discourse generated by the cliffhanger, and compounding goodwill from audiences.

Haven’t you heard? ATSV and Vol. 3 are proof of Marvel’s and superhero films decline actually. Some takes you just can’t take it seriously. 

[Boxx93]

I just realized that Spiderverse 2 will probably surpass The Smurfs (563 million worldwide) this weekend to become the highest grossing Sony Pictures Animation movie of all time.

 

I'm still baffled to this day that the Smurfs grossed that much money 12 years ago.

[ZattMurdock]

Kris Anka (comic book artist turned concept artist, responsible for the look of most of the Spider-Verse’s characters we saw in ATSV) made a cover for Miles Morales: Spider-Man recent comic book:

 

 

For those wanting to know more about ATSV’s creative process, Anka’s Twitter account is shock full of them:
 

There is a lot more on his Twitter account and he is constantly updating with new concept art for Across the Spider-Verse over there.

 

[Jonwo]

On 6/25/2023 at 4:43 AM, Boxx93 said:

I just realized that Spiderverse 2 will probably surpass The Smurfs (563 million worldwide) this weekend to become the highest grossing Sony Pictures Animation movie of all time.

 

I'm still baffled to this day that the Smurfs grossed that much money 12 years ago.

They're very popular in Europe.