The Marvels | November 10, 2023 | Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter

[MovieMan89]

Childish Gambino had his first big hit with a song centered around the refrain “stay woke” in 2017ish if we’re talking about how badly that word got butchered and twisted in recent years. 

[ListenHunnyUrOver]

1 hour ago, Valencia said:

Is the old man supposed to be Martin Scorsese?

The CBM audience/GA/Gen Z has no idea who that is lmao.

The general movie going audience knows who Scorsese is. 

[Bob Train]

1 hour ago, Valencia said:

Is the old man supposed to be Martin Scorsese?

The CBM audience/GA/Gen Z has no idea who that is lmao.

Audiences know who that is lol. They aren't stupid. I remember DC fans kept saying Ezra Miller would not affect Flash, as no one knew who he was.

 

Audiences are smarter than people think.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Bob Train

[HummingLemon496]

10 minutes ago, Bob Train said:

Audiences know who that is lol. They aren't stupid. I remember DC fans kept saying Ezra Miller would not affect Flash, as no one knew who he was.

 

Audiences are smarter than people think.

It's debatable if Ezra significantly affected Flash's box office, but yeah those "Literally nobody in the GA knows who Ezra Miller is" takes were ridiculous 

[Bob Train]

1 minute ago, HummingLemon496 said:

It's debatable if Ezra significantly affected Flash's box office, but yeah those "Literally nobody in the GA knows who Ezra Miller is" takes were ridiculous 

Something like 75% of the audience for Flash was dudes. Turns out people weren't willing to watch a movie about an uncharismatic child molester, no matter how many creepy CGI cameos are jammed into it

[fabiopazzo2]

11 hours ago, AMC Theaters Enjoyer said:

I don't really think this movie will cause a lot of changes. I don't think Blade will happen but that's for its own issues. Armor Wars and the Shang-Chi sequel are the only movies that feel are potential chopping block candidates if this movie does flop but again that's more towards the general state of Marvel.

 

Deadpool 3 feels like the more important movie that could really cause some changes if it underperforms (little to no chance it outright flops) and/or gets a bad response, given the multiverse of it all. 

Movie like Deadpool 3, Spiderman 4 or Avengers will not flop. People want an event movie like this. They need after IW, Endgame, NWH 

 

 

[fede75]

23 hours ago, toutvabien said:

Blade does kind of feel like Marvel's Flash at this point, but the creative team attached rn is too good. Plus they were Born Againig it right before the strike. Well, not literally, as they hadn't shot anything. The THR article did refer to Wonder Man as an upcoming series, I haven't heard anything about it being scrapped.

 

More movies could use that in general.

yeah the trades have said nothing yet about the series being scrapped. A writer of a MCU info book said 

Quote

They're trashing the Wonder-man proyect

but that could just mean they are writing in again like daredevil born again. Until the trades said something is not cancelled 

[judestar619]

16 hours ago, Valonqar said:

Do you guys know why MCU worked until Endgame? I'm curious to hear opinions and please don't say quality cause there were quite a few clunkers if we are being honest. But that was overlooked for larger value. So what does everyone think? Instead of talking in circles about what doesn't work now, lets start with what worked then. So why do you think that MCU worked between Iron Man (2008) and Endgame (2019)? 11 years.

It is mainly quality imo, it's just that there were less duds on average back then than there is now, and the concept of a cinematic universe felt more fresh and exciting 10 years ago than it does now. As for why the quality's gone down? I think that comes down to greed from Disney execs who wanted to pump out more content to keep Disney+ afloat at the expense of a cohesively run ship. At one point their aim was 4 movies and 4-5 shows a yearm which was just never gonna be sustainable. They also either got lucky with the amount of talented creatives they hired early on like the Russos, Taika and Gunn or just got lazy after the Infinity Saga and thought hiring no-names would be just as effective.

Edited October 15, 2023 by judestar619

[THUNDER BIRD]

18 hours ago, Valonqar said:

Do you guys know why MCU worked until Endgame? I'm curious to hear opinions and please don't say quality cause there were quite a few clunkers if we are being honest. But that was overlooked for larger value. So what does everyone think? Instead of talking in circles about what doesn't work now, lets start with what worked then. So why do you think that MCU worked between Iron Man (2008) and Endgame (2019)? 11 years.

First thing, it was fresh and new, Avengers was something insane and brought so much excitement for the franchise as a whole.

 

The focus was there, characters were less but most were fleshed really well, people got emotionally attached to the characters which made people ignore some of their flaws.

 

And quality was great too, yes there were clunkers, but even at worse they were watchable stuff. Even something as bad as Thor the Dark World had Loki and Thor bantering..... Which brings me to the second point again - Characters. 

 

Avengers movies did a really big job for the characters, even Age of Ultron's best moments were when characters were interacting with each other.

 

The thread was there, one single storyline which everyone knew was leading to Avengers movies and those Avengers movies are leading to the ultimate Showdown.

[THUNDER BIRD]

And the biggest problem for MCU piost Endgame is that most if the characters they've introduced are just bland and unable to excite audiences, so the flaws of the movies are not excused. 

 

I personally was fan of Dr Strange and Wanda..... And Multiverse of Madness just ended whatever excitement i had for MCU by ruining Wanda and wasting Dr Strange in his own movie.

 

We all know what happened to Thor.

 

Eternals, all exciting characters were supporting and the 2 main leads were boring.

 

Kang lol.

 

And where is Shang Chi after a promising debut.

 

And post Endgame there are so mant characters that I've lost count, there's no focus.

 

And biggest question - Where Are The Avengers.

[THUNDER BIRD]

Avengers 1 & 2 and Civil War acted like a connecting thread between Iron Man and Infinity War/Endgame

 

Something which is missing currently.

 

Just Imagine Iron Man to Infinity War straight, without Avengers 1 & 2.

 

Avengers movies were so important for people to see the team interact and warming people up to them, even the lesser known characters who didn't get solo movies. The Team is important.

[Liiviig 1998]

2 hours ago, THUNDER BIRD said:

And the biggest problem for MCU piost Endgame is that most if the characters they've introduced are just bland and unable to excite audiences, so the flaws of the movies are not excused. 

 

I personally was fan of Dr Strange and Wanda..... And Multiverse of Madness just ended whatever excitement i had for MCU by ruining Wanda and wasting Dr Strange in his own movie.

 

We all know what happened to Thor.

 

Eternals, all exciting characters were supporting and the 2 main leads were boring.

 

Kang lol.

 

And where is Shang Chi after a promising debut.

 

And post Endgame there are so mant characters that I've lost count, there's no focus.

 

And biggest question - Where Are The Avengers.

Allegedly rumour has it threads will start to connect Abit in 2024 slate (BNW/TB) . 

 

But they have lost so much  momentum.  2022 was the year when the iron was hot to strike and they absolutely messed that up, QM was the straw that really snapped the audiences backs

 

Looking at marvels presales , they are going to need to build that goodwill back again.

In a space of almost 2 years ,all that hype and goodwill in the dumps.just unbelievable.

 

It's so hard to build a sustainable franchise yet so easy for it to come crumbling down.

[HummingLemon496]

Phase 4/5 is like if Avengers 1 & 2 & Civil War didn't exist and they just made solo movies until Infinity War and Endgame

[Bob Train]

The problem is during phases 1-3, the characters were entertaining, and flawed but likeable. The core 6 Avengers had mega charisma.

 

However, thanks to years of mediocre sludge, the writing quality has plummeted to new lows.

 

Iron Man, Cap, and Black Widow are dead. Wanda's character motivations was thrown in the trash. Doctor Strange wasn't used in his own movie. Thor and Ant-Man starred in trash movies, leaving a poor taste in audiences mouths. Guardians seem to be done. No one cared about Captain Marvel or Rambeau in the first place. 

 

 

[Sckathian]

Funny thing is I think Shang Chi is probably the most charismatic character yet they have in this run.

 

Their plan is to release it after the next Avengers saga is over. So essentially we could have a 6-7 year between films but I strongly suspect it gets shelved. Odd odd stuff.

[THUNDER BIRD]

2 hours ago, Liiviig 1998 said:

Allegedly rumour has it threads will start to connect Abit in 2024 slate (BNW/TB) . 

 

But they have lost so much  momentum.  2022 was the year when the iron was hot to strike and they absolutely messed that up, QM was the straw that really snapped the audiences backs

 

Looking at marvels presales , they are going to need to build that goodwill back again.

In a space of almost 2 years ,all that hype and goodwill in the dumps.just unbelievable.

 

It's so hard to build a sustainable franchise yet so easy for it to come crumbling down.

Threads won't matter if the people don't care about the characters.

 

One thing that absolutely doesn't translates from comics to cinema is this. 

 

You can have unlimited stuff in comics, unlimited stories and unlimited characters. But in movies, you can't.

 

Sadly in real life, actors age or move away from the contracts. It's not so simple to just replace the character in movies once the actor is done. 

 

The hole remains no matter what you do.

[TwoMisfits]

1 hour ago, Bob Train said:

The problem is during phases 1-3, the characters were entertaining, and flawed but likeable. The core 6 Avengers had mega charisma.

 

However, thanks to years of mediocre sludge, the writing quality has plummeted to new lows.

 

Iron Man, Cap, and Black Widow are dead. Wanda's character motivations was thrown in the trash. Doctor Strange wasn't used in his own movie. Thor and Ant-Man starred in trash movies, leaving a poor taste in audiences mouths. Guardians seem to be done. No one cared about Captain Marvel or Rambeau in the first place. 

 

 

 

I always said it was unbelievable that they took so many characters and made such an amazing movie with Infinity War.  Why did it work?  B/c they ultimately still hung the huge climax of the movie on the most-liked characters - Iron Man, Spidey, Strange, and Star Lord.  Spidey dying in Iron Man's arms was "the" moment of the movie.  And then, compunding their great vision, they killed off almost every hero, so they could just have the original 6 save the world.  Keeping the follow up focused and tight - we've only got these heroes and they need to step up one last time. 

 

After the movie, they took the impossible number of heroes from Infinity War and just kept multiplying it without killing off or retiring any previous heroes (save Iron Man). 

 

I mean, a Young Avengers movie build (which is what Phase 4 seemed to be) to end Phase 4 to fight Kang and have half of them die, would have been a better call than what they've done, so we could have Avengers have to rally and save the next group, and so we could see how bad a$$ Kang was with a final confrontation of the strongest to end Phase 5.  And we could have "stakes" again.  Instead, Ant Man bests him to kick off Phase 5 - like the wussiest, most cowardly "hero" guy in the entire MCU just takes him down in a 2 hour movie.  And we are supposed to care that there might be more Kangs that the Wasp could probably blow away with her pinkie.

[THUNDER BIRD]

Also this also gives answer to someone above comparing MCU characters with Spiderman, James Bond or Batman/Superman.

 

Unlike those characters, MCU characters were not A listers, they are not worldwide popular characters, they were made by actors..... RDJ made Tony Stark what he is, Chris Evans made Steve Rogers. Same goes for most of MCU characters. 

 

Easier to replace actors when series is different like Bond, Batman or Spiderman and they get rebooted. Because the character brand is so strong. 

 

Problem with MCU is that they want next Captain America, next Iron Man, next Thor, next Hulk, next Hawkeye, next Black Widow, and it doesn't work.

[Valonqar]

Thanks everyon on responses to why MCU worked in Phases 1-3! Really great insights! 

 

10 minutes ago, THUNDER BIRD said:

Also this also gives answer to someone above comparing MCU characters with Spiderman, James Bond or Batman/Superman.

 

Unlike those characters, MCU characters were not A listers, they are not worldwide popular characters, they were made by actors..... RDJ made Tony Stark what he is, Chris Evans made Steve Rogers. Same goes for most of MCU characters. 

 

Easier to replace actors when series is different like Bond, Batman or Spiderman and they get rebooted. Because the character brand is so strong. 

 

Problem with MCU is that they want next Captain America, next Iron Man, next Thor, next Hulk, next Hawkeye, next Black Widow, and it doesn't work.

 

2 hours ago, Bob Train said:

The problem is during phases 1-3, the characters were entertaining, and flawed but likeable. The core 6 Avengers had mega charisma.

 

However, thanks to years of mediocre sludge, the writing quality has plummeted to new lows.

 

Iron Man, Cap, and Black Widow are dead. Wanda's character motivations was thrown in the trash. Doctor Strange wasn't used in his own movie. Thor and Ant-Man starred in trash movies, leaving a poor taste in audiences mouths. Guardians seem to be done. No one cared about Captain Marvel or Rambeau in the first place. 

 

 

 

Yep. Phases 1-3 had a great mix of already established actors (RDJ, Ruffalo, ScarJo, Renner, Evans, etc) and newcomers (Hemsworth, Pratt, Olsen, etc) . Now it seems they are going cheap with newcomers who aren't even the promising type from  indie movies. Just total barely there resumes while established actors get underutilized sometimes at the expense of those newcomers without star wattage (eg. MOM should have been Strange vs Wanda not What'sherface Blandy McBland vs Wanda with Strange as a guest). Also, the OGs were popular cause they weren't Next Iron Man Next Cap Next BW, etc, they were IM, Cap, BW. Majority of newbies seem to be just blander less likable or if not less likable than certianly overall less engaging/interesting versions of the OGs (new Cap, new BW, Iron Heart, She-Hulk, new Hawkeye what's her face, New Strange what'sherface, Mighty Thor...please stop). Why care when you can rewatch the old gang that was 1000 times better?

 

 

 

[Valencia]

49 minutes ago, THUNDER BIRD said:

Also this also gives answer to someone above comparing MCU characters with Spiderman, James Bond or Batman/Superman.

 

Unlike those characters, MCU characters were not A listers, they are not worldwide popular characters, they were made by actors..... RDJ made Tony Stark what he is, Chris Evans made Steve Rogers. Same goes for most of MCU characters. 

 

Easier to replace actors when series is different like Bond, Batman or Spiderman and they get rebooted. Because the character brand is so strong. 

 

Problem with MCU is that they want next Captain America, next Iron Man, next Thor, next Hulk, next Hawkeye, next Black Widow, and it doesn't work.

That's what reboots are for.