Dreamworks Animation: What Went Wrong?

[keysersoze123]

I only used animated movies and Hop is mixed. So they only have 3 movies, which does not make them a power house, but they lead this list, What can you do?

And you think Pixar has taken over Disney?

 

Lasseter leads the animation at Disney. This includes both Pixar and Disney. So its kind of Pixar taking over Disney animation post acquisition. He is/was heavily involved in all animation movies at disney including Frozen.

 

Illumination cannot be compared to Disney/Pixar. DM is not going to keep doing huge business. Most major franchises including Shrek burnt out and DM will start doing it with minions. You need to churn hits after hit and that is very difficult as Dreamworks is finding now. This is despite them having multiple break outs like Madagascar, KFP, Dragon and Croods.

Edited December 3, 2014 by keysersoze123

[CloneWars]

yah.  like i said earlier, in the last 16 years, pixar has only had one film make under $200M and two in their entire existence. They have made what, like, a dozen films now. When was the last time any studio made about 10 in films in a row that all made over $200M except one?

 

Pixar is still king. You can't just average the grosses of three movies and say illumination is on top. That's misleading. 

[keysersoze123]

yah.  like i said earlier, in the last 16 years, pixar has only had one film make under $200M and two in their entire existence. They have made what, like, a dozen films now. When was the last time any studio made about 10 in films in a row that all made over $200M except one?

 

Pixar is still king. You can't just average the grosses of three movies and say illumination is on top. That's misleading. 

 

That too with conviniently ignoring hop. I doubt any animation studio will ever match Pixar. Its fantastic. Outside Cars franchise all their movies had strong reviews as well. Its impossible for this kind of run to be mimicked.

[Jonwo]

The Lorax while a hit domestically was didn't do well OS as was Hop. If Illumination can consistently produce films that can gross over $200m then it could justified that they're box office king but personally I don't see it.  

[BK007]

The Lorax while a hit domestically was didn't do well OS as was Hop. If Illumination can consistently produce films that can gross over $200m then it could justified that they're box office king but personally I don't see it.  

 

 

Their first non-Seuss/Despicable Me production will give us a hint. 

 

I think they have DM3 and the Grinch up next.

 

Minions actually looks decent and pretty funny, so you know, there might be some life in them(Illumination) once the DM franchise is done.

 

the Lorax was pretty crappy though. 

[Melvin Frohike]

I wonder if things get worse, which of PDI and DWA's main studio would DWA shut down to cut cost? I reckon PDI

Yeah, I figure they'd decide to consolidate in Los Angeles if it ever came to that, short of moving all production overseas (or to another state offering substantial incentives). It doesn't help PDI that 2 out of their last 3 movies have underperformed, and Penguins of Madagascar appears to make it 3 out of 4 now while also potentially calling into question the viability of this franchise.

DWA isn't doing well these days, but it's necessary to mention that Pixar is kinda going downhill as well in recent years.

Creatively sure, but financially they're in a much better position than DreamWorks.

Definitely, on both counts, but Pixar is still struggling with cost, which I suspect has led to the green-lighting of more sequels than they had ever intended. They could also try to make movies at a faster rate with the large staff they have, but they're struggling creatively as it is, hence the sequels. Or they could streamline their production practices further and downsize, which of course means laying off a portion of their staff. Despite the position they are in and being backed by a giant conglomerate, there is nevertheless a question of sustainability that they're still struggling to answer. Disney might have deep pockets, but only a fool would spend more than they need to, and Pixar's answer, for now, is two prospective mega-blockbuster sequels in Finding Dory and Toy Story 4 (now leave our staff alone and keep letting us spend money!).

 

I do wonder what will happen when Pixar has their first flop because I don't see Disney shrugging it off. Given their budgets are higher than WDAS, it might give them an excuse to try and have Pixar reduce their budgets to the same level as WDAS. I would not be surprised if The Good Dinosaur has a $200m+ budget

Right, a flop (unlikely as that is) could quite possibly force the cost issue, which already is an issue for Pixar. There is also the fact that the federal government is looking into wage-fixing practices that largely revolve around Ed Catmull and Pixar but also involve WDAS (since he is the senior president of this studio, too), DWA, and other major players, which could potentially put even more pressure on Pixar (and others) regarding cost.

 

DWA being independent are more vunerable to underperformance because they need each film to be successful whereas other animation studios are part of a larger corporation where a flop will be bad but wouldn't sink the company.

Right, DWA is in even greater danger of disruption, but at the same time neither Pixar nor WDAS are immune.

[Derpity]

 

 

 

Lionsgate probably is a better position because of their other operations like television and their films aren't hugely expensive aside from Hunger Games and Divergent. I think if DWA keeps decreasing in value, it might be an attractive buy for Lionsgate. 

 

I'm surprised that DWA has never done a live action/CG hybrid film yet, we've seen with Smurfs, Alvin and most recently in the UK, Paddington that they be hugely successful and it would help diverse their film slate from just animation.

 

 

This could make sense, but DWA is such a terribly run company (with VERY HIGH production costs) that I cannot imagine anyone wanting it.  Why not just start from scratch if you want an animated film?

 

DWA has tried live action on Broadway with Shrek the Musical.  I think it lost a decent amount of money for them.

[Melvin Frohike]

HTTYD 2 was damn impressive, it shows DWA can do wonders when they want, I thought the Guardians, Kung Fu Panda 2 and the Croods had also very beautiful and cool moments, animations and visual elements.

I don t subscribe to the point of view that DWA movies cost a lost and look cheap.

I'm not sure if this is in response to anything I said, but to clarify I said that only some of DWA's movies don't look as impressive as their cost would suggest. Others, such as the examples you gave, most certainly do, and maybe even with some extra on top.

 

You may not like the look and designs of the characters but on a pure technical level, DWA studios is right behind Pixar.

The other studios are behind technologically to me even if the gap is not wide.

I agree, although WDAS has been making huge strides, and in terms of character animation, at least since Tangled they've been untouchable (it's their hand-drawn animation reborn in CGI form, which is not an easy accomplishment).

 

If you rank the studios according to the mean DOM BO of their last 3 movies (sometimes estimated), you get:

Illumination 278m

WDAS 268m (with 215 for BH6)

Pixar 232m

Fox 134m

DW 130m (with 100m for Penguins)

WB 126m

Sony 113m

so clearly Pixar lost its special position and DreamWorks is one of the also-rans.

Just out of curiosity, according to the mean WW box office of their last 3 movies (not counting movies currently in release, on my part), the list (truncated) looks like this:

WDAS: 779M

Illumination: 621M

Pixar: 614M

DWA: 391M

This tells basically the same story regarding Pixar and DWA as your list, but to be fair to Pixar, WDAS' and Illumination's last three movies include phenomenal performers, while for Pixar this is business as usual despite their (hopefully temporary and short) state of creative weakness.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Melvin Frohike

[Melvin Frohike]

and now I would call Disney/Pixar as one as Lasseter is running both.

I wouldn't put so much on one man, especially one who expressly desires to keep these studios' identities separate, as Lasseter does. Each studio has its own history, its own separate staff and facilities (although they do occasionally use the same writers, who play a secondary role in these productions), and more importantly its own culture.

 

Lasseter leads the animation at Disney. This includes both Pixar and Disney. So its kind of Pixar taking over Disney animation post acquisition.

Lasseter lives in both worlds now, but he originally came from WDAS, so who is really running whom? And Disney owns Pixar anyway, so Lasseter reports to Disney CEO Robert Iger. The answer is neither--Lasseter does different things with each studio, as he does with DisneyToon Studios, which he also runs from a creative perspective. All three studios are distinct entities despite sharing the same leadership, and Lasseter's relationship with each is also distinct.

 

He is/was heavily involved in all animation movies at disney including Frozen.

He works for Disney now, not just Pixar or WDAS. Frozen was made by WDAS, not Pixar, just like Monsters University (random recent example) was made by Pixar, not WDAS, even if there is one guy who happened to work on both (both studios have a few staffers who came from the other, but then again the same is true of DWA, so are they the same studio, too?). If one of these studios comes up with a turd, then is the other equally responsible?

You can look at this any way that you want, but Pixar and WDAS are certainly intended to be separate studios, and based on the physical reality as well as the movies they make, I see no reason to lump them together as one. While we're on the subject, contrary to popular belief neither studio, by rule, ever contributes a single frame to the movies of the other, and each has their own proprietary production processes and technology (although on occasion they will share some technology, such as WDAS' powerful new renderer Hyperion, which for the time being will, unlike Pixar's RenderMan, be kept proprietary to WDAS and now shared with Pixar to give them both an edge over the competition--however this is an exception rather than the rule).

 

Illumination cannot be compared to Disney/Pixar. DM is not going to keep doing huge business. Most major franchises including Shrek burnt out and DM will start doing it with minions. You need to churn hits after hit and that is very difficult as Dreamworks is finding now. This is despite them having multiple break outs like Madagascar, KFP, Dragon and Croods.

Right, Illumination shot out of the gate with a phenomenon, but it's too early to tell what they will be able to sustain, and frankly their movies are not compelling enough, in my opinion, to suggest that this is more than a fluke (maybe it isn't, to be fair, but we'll have to wait and see). They have had one other pretty big hit in the DOM market, The Lorax, but it did very poorly in the OS market in comparison, so the jury is still out.

 

That too with conviniently ignoring hop. I doubt any animation studio will ever match Pixar. Its fantastic. Outside Cars franchise all their movies had strong reviews as well. Its impossible for this kind of run to be mimicked.

Yeah, maybe by themselves, too, moving forward....

[Melvin Frohike]

Double post.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Melvin Frohike

[Jonwo]

This could make sense, but DWA is such a terribly run company (with VERY HIGH production costs) that I cannot imagine anyone wanting it. Why not just start from scratch if you want an animated film?

DWA has tried live action on Broadway with Shrek the Musical. I think it lost a decent amount of money for them.

Shrek the Musical while a flop on Broadway has been successful elsewhere. I don't think they'll be attempting another Broadway musical unless someone wants to do Prince of Eygpt

[Jonwo]

Their first non-Seuss/Despicable Me production will give us a hint.

I think they have DM3 and the Grinch up next.

Minions actually looks decent and pretty funny, so you know, there might be some life in them(Illumination) once the DM franchise is done.

the Lorax was pretty crappy though.

They have two Films out in 2016, one which is a Pets film, The other one is unknown, it could be animated, a hybrid or live action

[dudalb]

pixar is doing just fine, aside from Cars 2, they have not had a film make less than $200M in 16 years.

And Cars 2  was just made to sell a whole flock of new Cars Merchandise. Which it did, in spades. Cars 2 the movie might not have made The MOuse a lot of money, but the merchandise from it did.

[The Futurist]

The main point of this story is still that the market is beyond oversaturated and you have to find very creative ideas to stand out from the CGI animation market.

Pixar s 2015 is gonna be interesting. Can they make true original concepts hits like they used to ?

[FrozenUnicorn]

Shrek the Musical while a flop on Broadway has been successful elsewhere. I don't think they'll be attempting another Broadway musical unless someone wants to do Prince of Eygpt

If they did a Broadway version of The Prince of Egypt, I would SO want to see it!

[Jawa]

What went wrong is that Dreamworks exists and its films are generic crap and its characters are boring and all make the same facial expression and I don't even care that this is a run-on sentence.

[Rudolf]

Just out of curiosity, according to the mean WW box office of their last 3 movies (not counting movies currently in release, on my part), the list (truncated) looks like this:

WDAS: 779M

Illumination: 621M

Pixar: 614M

DWA: 391M

This tells basically the same story regarding Pixar and DWA as your list, but to be fair to Pixar, WDAS' and Illumination's last three movies include phenomenal performers, while for Pixar this is business as usual despite their (hopefully temporary and short) state of creative weakness.

.. to be fair?

To take the average of the last 3 animated movies serves to eliminate random effects but to show the current situation (not to crown best studio ever (should be the old Disney in my humble opinion))

 

I know here are a lot of Pixar fans, but I have predicted for a while, that their undisputde leader position, was not that secure with so many studios having access to good software. Almost all of them have good and succesful movies (not allways of course)

[The Futurist]

[Fancyarcher]

Regardless of how well Pixar's movies are doing, they are very much consistent when it comes to box office performance. That's gotta count for something.

[Melvin Frohike]

.. to be fair?

To take the average of the last 3 animated movies serves to eliminate random effects but to show the current situation (not to crown best studio ever (should be the old Disney in my humble opinion))

It's hard to eliminate random effects like Despicable Me 2 and especially Frozen with a sample size of 3. Well, the latter is not entirely random, being a Disney princess musical and all, but this phenomenon is definitely an outlier as a data point, let's just put it that way. This is for the present, and for the near future, Pixar, based on past history, will likely stay the same (or pull ahead with those monstrous sequels) while the others fall back.

 

I know here are a lot of Pixar fans,

Well, I'm a Pixar fan, but I'm more of a WDAS fan, if that matters. I'm just calling what I see. Pixar can make an embarrassingly crappy movie like Cars 2 and still make numbers that most movies could only wish for, while the mediocre efforts that followed maintain the high average of the far superior movies they had made earlier. That's not right but it is nevertheless true.

 

but I have predicted for a while, that their undisputde leader position, was not that secure with so many studios having access to good software. Almost all of them have good and succesful movies (not allways of course)

It's not as secure as it once was, and likely won't ever be, but until proven otherwise Pixar are the overall leader at the box office (among animated features), even though personally I think that WDAS have been making far better movies than Pixar have in recent years. And yes, I'd gladly take Tangled (or DWA's HTTYD, for that matter) over Toy Story 3 (released the same year), no question. And heck, I think that Up is quite weak aside from its brilliant opening. But Pixar keeps raking it in regardless--it is what it is.

 

Regardless of how well Pixar's movies are doing, they are very much consistent when it comes to box office performance. That's gotta count for something.

Precisely.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Melvin Frohike