Weekend Thread (Dec-30-Jan 2nd) 3/4-day #s R1 49.5m/64.3m, Sing 42.8m/56.4m, Pass 16.15m/20.7m, Moana 10.97m/14.3m, WH 10.6m/13m, Fences 10m/12.7m

[Mr Terrific]

Subjective is like... were the Blues Brothers really on a mission from God?

Edited January 3, 2017 by Mr Terrific

[Jake Gittes]

8 minutes ago, kowhite said:

 

He's right though, you can objectively judge a movie.

 

For example...The Godfather.  It's a movie.  It has acting in it.  The cinematography is visible (unless you're blind).  The music is audible.  The dialogue is coherent, I can hear it and those are in fact words and sentences.  The movie has a story.  That story takes up around 3 hours of screen time.  The movie is about the mob.  Marlon Brando is in the movie.  So is Al Pacino.  So was a cat.   

 

Thank you for reading my objective review of The Godfather.

 

http://theobjectivereviewer.blogspot.ru/2014/10/citizen-kane.html

[Xavier]

This debate is completely meaningless and yes, of course there is an objective, "film-school" opinion about movies. If not, best movies ever lists would only comprise the most fanboy powered franchises and not the likes of Shawshank Redemption, the Godfather or Casablanca.

 

For me, fanboyism is totally excused 1. if you are self-conscious about it and 2. If you don't attack other people, having accepted your subjectivity.

 

I don't get the level of Star Wars love (actually it can be explained as the North American attempt at creating a mythology, totally respected) and i often cringe about the level of dominance of comic book movies over the current cinematic landscape. 

 

That poster dcasey or whatever loses many points for being so aggressive, but don't pretend he/she is less biased than the likes of many of you.

[kowhite]

2 minutes ago, Jake Gittes said:

 

http://theobjectivereviewer.blogspot.ru/2014/10/citizen-kane.html

 

I always thought people underrated Citizen Kane's gameplay.  

[kowhite]

5 minutes ago, Xavier said:

This debate is completely meaningless and yes, of course there is an objective, "film-school" opinion about movies. If not, best movies ever lists would only comprise the most fanboy powered franchises and not the likes of Shawshank Redemption, the Godfather or Casablanca.

 

There is a subjective consensus among those with intellectual and cinematic appreciation for the artform.

 

It is most certainly not objective.

Edited January 3, 2017 by kowhite

[Xavier]

6 minutes ago, kowhite said:

 

There is a subjective consensus among those with intellectual and cinematic appreciation for the artform.

 

It is most certainly not objective.

 

But this is the kind of appreciation that matters.

[kowhite]

Just now, Xavier said:

 

But this is the kind of appreciation that matters.

 

For sure, it matters.  Objective also means something so, let's phrase that differently (kowhite's semantic rant OVER).

[PPZVGOS]

1 hour ago, Xavier said:

 

It didn't. It surpassed Fantastic Beasts, you know, no Potter in it :-))

 

The Force Awakens made over 123M pounds in the UK. The most successful HP movie over here in un-adjusted terms was DHP2. That made 73.1M pounds which in 2015 currency equals 80.36M

 

The most successful Potter movie when inflation is taken into account, is still the very first one, which made 66.1M back in 2001. That equals 98.6M in today's money, still well below The Force Awakens. And this year, a spin-off/prequel went against a spin-off/prequel, and again Star Wars won the day easily. I am not even sure what you are trying to say or prove here. 

 

Facts.

Edited January 3, 2017 by PPZVGOS

[Daxtreme]

4 minutes ago, PPZVGOS said:

 

The Force Awakens made over 123M pounds in the UK. The most successful HP movie over here in un-adjusted terms was DHP2. That made 73.1M pounds which in 2015 currency equals 80.36M

 

The most successful Potter movie when inflation is taken into account, is still the very first one, which made 66.1M back in 2001. That equals 98.6M in today's money, still well below The Force Awakens. And this year, a spin-off/prequel went against a spin-off/prequel, and again Star Wars won easily the day. I am not even sure what you are trying to say or prove here. 

 

Facts.

 

 

And in the US, adjusted for inflation, the top-grossing Harry Potter movie out of all of them sits just above the lowest-grossing Star Wars movie (excluding Clone Wars and assuming Rogue One ends up with >$500M)

 

 

 

 

[SWXII]

I remember the days when people claimed Potter would leave Star Wars in the dust bin of history. Doesn't seem like they did their research.

[JonathanLB]

11 minutes ago, kowhite said:

 

There is a subjective consensus among those with intellectual and cinematic appreciation for the artform.

 

It is most certainly not objective.

 

That's exactly right. You are allowed to have whatever opinion you want about any movie. About all that can be said objectively are things like, "This movie received universal acclaim from many people who experts in film having seen numerous movies from all genres and time periods," or "It is widely recognized as a great movie by most people," so yes, you can make objective statements even about opinions, but you need to understand at the most basic level that whatever you think about a movie is an opinion. You can write out paragraphs about how great you think Breakfast at Tiffany's is and how it is an acclaimed movie, but you will never, ever convince me in a million years that it's a good movie, on any level. I think it's a racist piece of shit that I wouldn't rank above the average Madea film. It's garbage. That's my opinion as a very educated filmgoer and someone who has studied the history of film academically, has written numerous reviews of more than 700 movies, published books on cinema, and as a filmmaker myself. You can throw all of the credentials you want at any opinion (that's my point), but it doesn't make one opinion "more right" than another one. You will always find someone -- some professional critic -- who disliked almost any movie, no matter how well liked it is by everyone else. 

 

When you start saying things like, "Well I enjoyed Transformers a lot more than I enjoyed Manchester By the Sea, but I recognize Manchester is 'a better movie'" what you're really saying is: "Well I think Transformers is a better, more entertaining movie than Manchester By the Sea, but I also recognize that in saying that I will fall out of favor with my social group and the intellectual elite whose opinions I value. I don't want to sound uneducated or simple minded, so I'm going to go ahead and say that Transformers is a guilty pleasure because I feel guilty about not conforming with other people's opinions."

 

That's where I have problems with expressing opinions that way. It lacks conviction. Whatever I say, or whatever I think, I don't question my opinions. I'm entitled to have them and I know it. I know that very, very few people in the world have studied film more in depth than I have, and that very few people share my passion for cinema, so when I don't enjoy something, I don't enjoy it. I don't need to justify it. I don't feel "stupid" for not liking some big critical awards film. I know I'm smart, and smart people have different opinions about movies, too. If everyone who was smart had the same opinions, I guess we wouldn't have different political parties or disagreements about how to govern. Everyone would just agree all of the time, on everything. Clearly, there is room in the world for a diversity of opinions. You don't HAVE to like a movie just because it can't gross $100M and just because it doesn't appeal to mainstream audiences. You can hate indie awards movies and still be an educated filmgoer. There is no requirement for gaining your "special card" into "the intellectual elite." That's the beauty of art -- we can all have our own opinions, and it doesn't affect the art at all. The art exists apart from any opinions about it. 

[JB33]

It's funny the topic of objectively ranking movies has come up because I've sometimes tried to have this conversation with people, but to no avail. Movie ranking is not really objective, but I always tell people that they way I would do it is based on a combination of box office success (aka commercial success, success with the actual viewers), critical reception and awards. Using that formula, I've maintained for awhile that The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King is the greatest movie ever made. When it completed its box office run, it was the 2nd highest grossing film of all time behind Titanic. In terms of critical reception, it has an unbelievable 94 Metacritic score and 95% Rotten Tomatoes score (the former of which is even more telling) and in terms of awards it shares the all time record for Oscars won with Titanic, having amassed 12.

 

It doesn't get any better than that, objectively speaking. In terms of my personal opinion, it's one of my top films of all time and I believe it still holds my own record for most times seen in theatres. I don't exactly remember how many, I just know I was 15 and a half years old when it came out and I was going to watch every time I had an ounce of spending money. I couldn't get enough of it.

Edited January 3, 2017 by JB33

[filmlover]

Anyway, thoughts on the numbers:

 

Rogue One is gonna sail past Finding Dory and become #1 of 2016, making it two years in a row Star Wars conquered the year (which is sure to extend to three years soon enough). If I were Disney, I would never open a Star Wars film outside of Christmas ever again.

 

Sing is killing it as well. Considering how barren the competition is for family films until The Lego Batman Movie, $300M isn't completely out of reach. Illumination's insane run continues.

 

Passengers won't go down as a hit but barely crossing $100M isn't too bad either all things considered.

 

Moana is still raking in the big bucks and should continue to take advantage of no competition for a while as well.

 

Why Him? and Fences are looking at totals of $60M each, which is solid for both considering their budgets (the latter in particular won't appeal to everyone given its stagey nature). Assassin's Creed is obviously gonna die soon.

 

La La Land continues its imperial march to big box office numbers. With plenty of awards to come, $100M is all but guaranteed. Lion and Jackie are doing well, if not exactly amazing.

 

Hidden Figures is doing incredible and will continue to do so when it goes wide next weekend (I wouldn't rule out $25M+ even with a 2,300 theater count). 20th Century Women is off to a really good start considering it's expected to be an acting contender only at this point. Patriots Day is looking good for its wide release, but Silence just isn't doing all that impressive given the hype (and if it misses a Best Picture nomination, that will be even more troubling for it catching on). A Lovely Bones type of run is probably the best Live by Night can hope for at this point when it goes wide. There's a strong chance A Monster Calls will open outside the top 10 when it goes wide next weekend.

[SWXII]

12 minutes ago, JB33 said:

It's funny the topic of objectively ranking movies has come up because I've sometimes tried to have this conversation with people, but to no avail. Movie ranking is not really objective, but I always tell people that they way I would do it is based on a combination of box office success (aka commercial success, success with the actual viewers), critical reception and awards. Using that formula, I've maintained for awhile that The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King is the greatest movie ever made. When it completed its box office run, it was the 2nd highest grossing film of all time behind Titanic. In terms of critical reception, it has an unbelievable 94 Metacritic score and 95% Rotten Tomatoes score (the former of which is even more telling) and in terms of awards it shares the all time record for Oscars won with Titanic, having amassed 12.

 

It doesn't get any better than that, objectively speaking. In terms of my personal opinion, it's one of my top films of all time and I believe it still holds my own record for most times seen in theatres. I don't exactly remember how many, I just know I was 15 and a half years old when it came out and I was going to watch every time I had an ounce of spending money. I couldn't get enough of it.

 

I keep imaging them getting PJ and Shore back together for a SW anthology film. A true stand alone feature just barely connected to Canon and turn them loose on it. 

[SWXII]

5 minutes ago, filmlover said:

Anyway, thoughts on the numbers:

 

Rogue One is gonna sail past Finding Dory and become #1 of 2016, making it two years in a row Star Wars conquered the year (which is sure to extend to three years soon enough). If I were Disney, I would never open a Star Wars film outside of Christmas ever again.

 

Sing is killing it as well. Considering how barren the competition is for family films until The Lego Batman Movie, $300M isn't completely out of reach. Illumination's insane run continues.

 

Passengers won't go down as a hit but barely crossing $100M isn't too bad either all things considered.

 

Moana is still raking in the big bucks and should continue to take advantage of no competition for a while as well.

 

Why Him? and Fences are looking at totals of $60M each, which is solid for both considering their budgets (the latter in particular won't appeal to everyone given its stagey nature). Assassin's Creed is obviously gonna die soon.

 

La La Land continues its imperial march to big box office numbers. With plenty of awards to come, $100M is all but guaranteed. Lion and Jackie are doing well, if not exactly amazing.

 

Hidden Figures is doing incredible and will continue to do so when it goes wide next weekend (I wouldn't rule out $25M+ even with a 2,300 theater count). 20th Century Women is off to a really good start considering it's expected to be an acting contender only at this point. Patriots Day is looking good for its wide release, but Silence just isn't doing all that impressive given the hype (and if it misses a Best Picture nomination, that will be even more troubling for it catching on). A Lovely Bones type of run is probably the best Live by Night can hope for at this point when it goes wide. There's a strong chance A Monster Calls will open outside the top 10 when it goes wide next weekend.

 

I wish Lucasfilm and Cameron could just agree to give Christmas to SW and Avatar summers. Just seems to be where they belong.

[JB33]

2 minutes ago, SWXII said:

 

I keep imaging them getting PJ and Shore back together for a SW anthology film. A true stand alone feature just barely connected to Canon and turn them loose on it. 

 

That would be insane!

[JB33]

1 minute ago, SWXII said:

 

I wish Lucasfilm and Cameron could just agree to give Christmas to SW and Avatar summers. Just seems to be where they belong.

 

It's going to be interesting to see what happens in 2018. If I'm Disney, I'm putting Han Solo in that mid-December slot regardless of what happens with Avatar 2. They're better off to let Avengers: Infinity War wreak havoc in May and early June than have two of their own tentpoles cannibalizing each other.  

[Daxtreme]

21 minutes ago, JB33 said:

I've maintained for awhile that The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King is the greatest movie ever made.

 

I like Fellowship of the Ring better

 

It didn't win 11 oscars though

 

btw Return of the King won 11 oscars, tied with Titanic and Ben-Hur, not 12

[JB33]

1 minute ago, Daxtreme said:

 

I like Fellowship of the Ring better

 

It didn't win 11 oscars though

 

btw Return of the King won 11 oscars, tied with Titanic and Ben-Hur, not 12

 

Woops, thanks for the correction!

[PPZVGOS]

53 minutes ago, Daxtreme said:

 

 

And in the US, adjusted for inflation, the top-grossing Harry Potter movie out of all of them sits just above the lowest-grossing Star Wars movie (excluding Clone Wars and assuming Rogue One ends up with >$500M)

 

 

 

 

 

Rogue One has already surpassed both HP8 & HP1 ($408M & $425M in inflation-adjusted terms) domestically. The only question is how big the margin will end up being. As for AOTC, the weakest Star Wars movie ever made, both in terms of box-office and in terms of quality it's barely behind HP8, or this year's CA: Civil War. It made $405M in adjusted terms.