Classic Conversation Thread

[filmlover]

2 minutes ago, Plain Old Tele said:

Don’t get me started on WV. But I don’t see why Disney would stop or why others won’t try to imitate. And Emmy voters clearly only watch about a half-dozen shows so the big hitters (formerly prestige-y stuff, now popular tentpole-y stuff) will continue to suck the air out of the room. 

Oh, I doubt Disney will stop, but with the types of projects the MCU has announced, I doubt we'll be seeing anything going beyond techs aside from maybe a guest spot or two. Don Cheadle was nominated for a 98 second cameo entirely because of name recognition, having already been nominated 10 times before (too bad a pair of lame Showtime shows unworthy of his talent make up over half of them).

[Porthos]

5 minutes ago, Plain Old Tele said:

Don’t get me started on WV. But I don’t see why Disney would stop or why others won’t try to imitate. And Emmy voters clearly only watch about a half-dozen shows so the big hitters (formerly prestige-y stuff, now popular tentpole-y stuff) will continue to suck the air out of the room. 

 

The Crown is absolutely gonna crush everybody else tho, when it comes to wins.  Maaaaaaaybe an outside shot for Elizabeth Olsen for Best Actress when it comes to Limited, though I have to think Queen's Gambit is gonna dominate over there as well. 

 

Ted Lasso on the comedy side is also gonna rake, if I had to a make a guess on that side.

 

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong.  But as I scan Goldderby, there's a whole bunch of other people who'll be wrong right along side me. Do see them giving some love to Lovecraft Country, but I wouldn't exactly call that tentploe-y

[Porthos]

9 minutes ago, filmlover said:

Oh, I doubt Disney will stop, but with the types of projects the MCU has announced, I doubt we'll be seeing anything going beyond techs aside from maybe a guest spot or two. Don Cheadle was nominated for a 98 second cameo entirely because of name recognition, having already been nominated 10 times before (too bad a pair of lame Showtime shows unworthy of his talent make up over half of them).

 

Mando has a good shot at repeating its Music win.  But aside from that, I don't think any of its actor/writer/director nods are gonna have much of a chance at all (though admittedly I don't have a great feel for writer/director nods when it comes to the Emmys).  About the only I would lay even 6 to 1 odds at is probably Timothy Olyphant, and that's more for his body of work/the fact that Hollywood loves him.  But as I scan his competition, I wouldn't give him much of a chance to unseat Charles Dance (The Crown) or Courtney B. Vance (Lovecraft Country).  

 

But if Mando gets a non-technical win, he's probably the best shot.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Porthos

[Plain Old Tele]

12 minutes ago, filmlover said:

Oh, I doubt Disney will stop, but with the types of projects the MCU has announced, I doubt we'll be seeing anything going beyond techs aside from maybe a guest spot or two. Don Cheadle was nominated for a 98 second cameo entirely because of name recognition, having already been nominated 10 times before (too bad a pair of lame Showtime shows unworthy of his talent make up over half of them).

Name recognition, sure. And tbh I don’t really see much difference in the MCU shows that’ve aired and what’s coming down the pipeline. Disney will spend a ton casting high-level names and they’ll heavily promote it all and there you go. 

 

12 minutes ago, Porthos said:

 

The Crown is absolutely gonna crush everybody else tho, when it comes to wins.  Maaaaaaaybe an outside shot for Elizabeth Olsen for Best Actress when it comes to Limited, though I have to think Queen's Gambit is gonna dominate over there as well. 

 

Ted Lasso on the comedy side is also gonna rake, if I had to a make a guess on that side.

 

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong.  But as I scan Goldderby, there's a whole bunch of other people who'll be wrong right along side me. Do see them giving some love to Lovecraft Country, but I wouldn't exactly call that tentploe-y

The Crown is basically its own little IP tentpole right now. And sure, some of this will take a little time. But the writing’s on the wall — the major TV creative talent are all their own mini-franchises (the latest Shonda, the latest Ryan); in the short term those mini-franchises will compete with the more traditional ones being driven by movies. And then they’ll probably convince those mega-producers to take on external franchises and they’ll Berlanti everything. (Let’s not forget Ted Lasso comes out of commercial IP, literally). 
 

edit: granted, I think TV is slowly but surely strangling itself with its refusal to pay writers decently while leveraging everything towards being limited run series of 8-10 eps — while slowly losing out on on-the-job training for future EPs. We’ll end up in 5-10 years with a tiny group of veteran showrunners with enormous clout, a scrabble of mid-level writers desperate for work, and some feature directors to take over some of the showrunning. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Plain Old Tele

[filmlover]

14 minutes ago, Porthos said:

 

The Crown is absolutely gonna crush everybody else tho, when it comes to wins.  Maaaaaaaybe an outside shot for Elizabeth Olsen for Best Actress when it comes to Limited, though I have to think Queen's Gambit is gonna dominate over there as well. 

Actress Limited is arguably between Winslet and Taylor-Joy. Olsen, Erivo, and Michaela Coel are being rewarded with their nominations.

Edited July 14, 2021 by filmlover

[filmlover]

I feel like the major success of Bridgerton must make Netflix feel really good about having made that enormous deal with Shonda considering how much that super expensive Ryan Murphy deal has turned out to be a big flop. One probably doesn't need a crystal ball to predict that he'll fully return to FX once it is up.

[Madhuvan]

Next year Loki is going for numerous nominations even in main categories if finale delivers.

Basically , Supporting and Guest are already locked with many technical nominations and with how today goes , lead actor , actress could also be potentially locked with nod for show in Best Drama also.

 

MCU is not going to stop. 

[Plain Old Tele]

8 minutes ago, Madhuvan said:

 

MCU is not going to stop. 

RIP the Earth. 

[Porthos]

3 minutes ago, Plain Old Tele said:

The Crown is basically its own little IP tentpole right now. And sure, some of this will take a little time. But the writing’s on the wall — the major TV creative talent are all their own mini-franchises (the latest Shonda, the latest Ryan); in the short term those mini-franchises will compete with the more traditional ones being driven by movies. And then they’ll probably convince those mega-producers to take on external franchises and they’ll Berlanti everything. (Let’s not forget Ted Lasso comes out of commercial IP, literally). 

 

I'd ask who pissed in your Cheerios lately, Tele, but I'm afraid you might answer me.  

 

But the thing is, if you're expanding your definition to "major TV creative talent" becoming its own mini-franchises, hasn't it always been this way? And even if you want to quibble with that, I'll concede the point and just say you were talking about "prestige-y stuff" disappearing.

 

So I suppose I would ask: Just what would you consider "prestige TV"?

 

*pause*

 

I would also add we're talking about THE EMMYS here.  It's always been Big Name dominated.  If we want to restrict it to just Best Drama Series, in the last couple of decades we have:

 

The West Wing x4 (okay, fair - but still)

The Sopranos (by then, I'd put it in the same umbrella that you are about little IP tentpole)

LOST (no comment)

24 (same 'no comment')

The Sopranos

Mad Men x5 (okay, maybe here we have an argument, but as time goes on, think it becomes its own ip tentpole)

Homeland (genuine 'no comment' as I really can't comment on it)

Breaking Bad x2 (100% deserved as it is widely considered the best TV shows ever, but tell me it wasn't a 'little IP tentpole' under your definition)

Game of Thrones x2 (the very definition of "ip")

The Handmaiden's Tale (ip but also prestige?  I mean, maybe?)

Game of Thrones x2 again

Succession (mini-ip or prestige?  I'll let you decide)..

 

That's everything since the year 2000.  Got to say, Tele, not really seeing your argument here.   We have genuine popular entertainment breaking in (LOST, 24) along with genuine franchise IP (GOT, Handmaiden's Tale) and then flagship TV shows (West Wing, Sopranos, Mad Men).

 

Kinda think this battle was lost a while ago. 

[TMP]

13 minutes ago, Madhuvan said:

Basically , Supporting and Guest are already locked with many technical nominations and with how today goes , lead actor , actress could also be potentially locked with nod for show in Best Drama also.

bruh the emmy season just started, not to mention Succession will be competing again lol

[filmlover]

Gonna be interesting to see how these upcoming big-budget HBO Max DC shows turn out. So far I think Green Lantern is the only one that's officially on the way? Berlanti's involvement can be hit or miss (he also played a large part behind the scenes on the Ryan Reynolds bomb), but it sounds like the production values for these will definitely be much higher than any of the shows on The CW and casting an actual good actor (Finn Wittrock) in the lead is already a step in the right direction.

[Plain Old Tele]

11 minutes ago, Porthos said:

 

I'd ask who pissed in your Cheerios lately, Tele, but I'm afraid you might answer me.  

 

But the thing is, if you're expanding your definition to "major TV creative talent" becoming its own mini-franchises, hasn't it always been this way? And even if you want to quibble with that, I'll concede the point and just say you were talking about "prestige-y stuff" disappearing.

 

So I suppose I would ask: Just what would you consider "prestige TV"?

 

*pause*

 

I would also add we're talking about THE EMMYS here.  It's always been Big Name dominated.  If we want to restrict it to just Best Drama Series, in the last couple of decades we have:

 

The West Wing x4 (okay, fair - but still)

The Sopranos (by then, I'd put it in the same umbrella that you are about little IP tentpole)

LOST (no comment)

24 (same 'no comment')

The Sopranos

Mad Men x5 (okay, maybe here we have an argument, but as time goes on, think it becomes its own ip tentpole)

Homeland (genuine 'no comment' as I really can't comment on it)

Breaking Bad x2 (100% deserved as it is widely considered the best TV shows ever, but tell me it wasn't a 'little IP tentpole' under your definition)

Game of Thrones x2 (the very definition of "ip")

The Handmaiden's Tale (ip but also prestige?  I mean, maybe?)

Game of Thrones x2 again

Succession (mini-ip or prestige?  I'll let you decide)..

 

That's everything since the year 2000.  Got to say, Tele, not really seeing your argument here.   We have genuine popular entertainment breaking in (LOST, 24) along with genuine franchise IP (GOT, Handmaiden's Tale) and then flagship TV shows (West Wing, Sopranos, Mad Men).

 

Kinda think this battle was lost a while ago. 

It was lost awhile ago, generally, now it’ll just become the fields of feature IPs. So, littered with MCUs, endless DCs, Star WarsEUs, LOTRs, GOT prequels… maybe they can make AQP into a series. Then they can reboot MI back into a TV show and come full circle. Of course there’s always room for a Star Trek or two (tho maybe too nerdy and uncool to actually win awards now). Next up, high-profile videogame series: obviously already underway with The Witcher and TLOU. I’m sure someone’s trying to get Horizon: Zero Dawn off the ground, and at some point they’ll do a HALO series just to finally do it. RDR seems like a given. Then they can do some Call of Duties, maybe even circle back around to having one set in WWII in time for the 25th anniversary of Band of Brothers. 
 

There’s a lot of talent out there but let’s make sure they stay in pre-existing sandboxes while they play. 
 

Meanwhile the fans will get angrier and angrier until their favorite franchises start winning Emmys and then whatever they were originally, suddenly they’re basically the equivalent of giving Hasbro a bunch of awards for selling a lot of toys. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Plain Old Tele

[Porthos]

25 minutes ago, Plain Old Tele said:

edit: granted, I think TV is slowly but surely strangling itself with its refusal to pay writers decently while leveraging everything towards being limited run series of 8-10 eps — while slowly losing out on on-the-job training for future EPs. We’ll end up in 5-10 years with a tiny group of veteran showrunners with enormous clout, a scrabble of mid-level writers desperate for work, and some feature directors to take over some of the showrunning. 

 

You edited this in while I was working on my post, and I don't really want to rework it to address it, so I'll comment here instead.

 

Well, this is a much different argument, IMO.  Writers should absolutely get paid more, of course, so I won't disagree with you there, nor the potential pitfalls of consolidation.  But when it comes to series episode count, isn't that made up to some degree by the increased number of shows?

 

And, while the Hollywood system isn't the same, the British have long had a model where their shows had much shorter seasons, and I don't think it's hurt the writing chops of those writers. 

 

As for future executive producers, again wouldn't the rise of more limited shows give more opportunities for studios to "take chances".  I hate to make you grit your teeth, but look at Lucasfilm.  They're giving Deborah Chow a series after being impressed with her work as a director in other of their other shows.  There are pretty strong rumors that Rick Famuyiwa is gonna get something to play with in the near future.  Seems pretty apparent that Bryce Dallas Howard is being groomed for bigger and better things (though that could also be nepotism/old boy network to a degree).

 

I get your concern, as left to its own devices, corps will eat themselves.  But I also kiinnnnnnda think we're at the dawn of a sort of Wild Wild West when it comes to the sheer explosion of TV series and opportunities out there.  If anything, I think the danger is more  unstatainability when there is just TOO MUCH new TV out there and that's where the danger of an implosion is.

 

Mind, you're in the industry and I very much am not, so of course I would defer to your first hand knowledge.  But, I dunno.  Think you might be being a little too cynical here when it comes to the near term future of TV. 

[Porthos]

4 minutes ago, Plain Old Tele said:

It was lost awhile ago,

 

Okay, but that still doesn't answer me about what you would consider "prestige TV", and how would you differentiate it from something you classified as a "little IP tentpole" as it really was a serious question.  Just what were these shows that the Emmy voters used to pay attention to?

[Plain Old Tele]

Just now, Porthos said:

 

Well, this is a much different argument, IMO.  Writers should absolutely get paid more, of course, so I won't disagree with you there, nor the potential pitfalls of consolidation.  But when it comes to series episode count, isn't that made up to some degree by the increased number of shows? 

 You’re right, it’s a different argument.
 

In the past, a writer could comfortably be on one show, because it would employ them for most of the year — not to mention they would be getting a steady education of how to be a better producer (and ultimately showrunner) because writers WERE producers; they would be sent to set to oversee production, they would go to the edit bay to supervise an episode’s post production, etc. 

 

Now they don’t have those options, and the increased number of shows doesn’t really cover it. If you work on a show, the trend now is to jam everyone’s work into like 10-12 weeks (less if possible), then ditch most of the writers and let the showrunner deal with rewrites and production. So writers lose out on actually learning how to be showrunners (which is going to dramatically narrow the number of qualified showrunners in the future), and they don’t have the ability to give their all to one show because in the blink of an eye they’ll be done with it and trying to find another. 
 

Shows don’t want to pay gap rates either (to cover the amount of time between seasons), so you basically have a lot of low- to mid-tier writers constantly scrambling to get any sort of steady work. And this doesn’t even get into the appalling ways many shows treat writers’ assistants and script coordinators. 
 

Meanwhile, budgets are higher than ever — but the studios and networks are paying for “cool” things like more VFX and better perks for their top-level talent and A-list feature people (both cast and crew). 
 

It’s hard for me to see how this is sustainable long term. Hopefully something will change. (The vague things I’ve heard some people say is that basically writers will eventually lose out on TV being a writers’ medium and it’ll shift to basically another form of features with execs and feature directors in charge.)

[Plain Old Tele]

9 minutes ago, Porthos said:

 

Okay, but that still doesn't answer me about what you would consider "prestige TV", and how would you differentiate it from something you classified as a "little IP tentpole" as it really was a serious question.  Just what were these shows that the Emmy voters used to pay attention to?

I’m saying the Emmys have (usually) always been in a popular rut but the popular shows at least (for the most part) tied into larger conglomerate universes. And now that they are, I find it deeply depressing.  

[filmlover]

IP is just what sells these days. We got a Dexter revival coming up and I bet it'll at least bring in plenty of eyeballs even though the original series became so reviled by the time it ended (hopefully this revival is actually good and not a cynical marketing ploy from Showtime trying to revive their own brand, which has become irrelevant in recent years to the point where reviving their greatest hits is the only way they can grab headlines these days). 

[Jamiem]

The everything is existing IP argument is getting really old. List of recent acclaimed TV shows that aren’t preexisting audiovisual IP (across a range of different genres)

 

For All Mankind

It’s a Sin

Devs

Queen’s Gambit

Mare of Easttown

Hacks

PEN15

 

As far as awards they matter (particularly to the creatives who put in the hard work) but there is almost always snubs and personal preference of the voters etc. that means some miss out. That does not mean there isn’t quality out there.

 

 

[Porthos]

Just now, Plain Old Tele said:

but the popular shows at least (for the most part) weren't tied into larger conglomerate universes. And now that they are, I find it deeply depressing.  

 

Really? I couldn't tell.

 

(added in a weren't that I figured belonged there)

 

====

 

I get your concern, Tele, I really do.  But, well, I am gonna be surprised at the first "Franchise" Emmy win that comes out of Marvel/Disney/Whatever, as I just don't think the current Emmy voter base sees it as "serious"/"epic" enough.  Maaaaaaaybe if the rumors about Mando Going Big are true, then in a few years that could happen as sort of a lifetime achievement award.  On the other hand, I already am seeing the Oscar-ification of the Emmys starting to happen (where more 'arty' things get elevated in an attempt to separate from the hoi poloi), and I won't be shocked to see tha...

 

...

 

*remembers Game of Thrones winning forever and ever once it picked up steam*

 

That Amazon Middle Earth series is gonna ABSOLUTELY BLOW EVERYTHING OUT OF THE WATER, isn't it?  That seems in the perfect cross-section of "arty" and "epic"

 

...

 

At least it won't be Marvel/Star Wars/CBM?  Count your blessings there, Tele?

 

(NARRATOR:  Tele would, in fact, not count his blessings there)

[Plain Old Tele]

6 minutes ago, filmlover said:

IP is just what sells these days. 

Sure, that’s exactly what the networks have convinced themselves about. So that’s what we’re gonna be getting, in spades (with occasional but increasingly rare exceptions).