LOGAN'sLuckyRun Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said: Use logic A film like TLJ and BP in the past would sell millions of DVDs or even more. Now it is being sold on streaming services that people pay less then 10 bucks a month to watch. The studios still get paid for that you know perhaps not as much, but still payed. Quote Securing licensing agreements with TV networks, filmmakers, and other content owners is arguably the greatest expense for Netflix. For example, the company spent nearly $200 million in 2011 for access to Disney films and TV programming for a one-year period. The full series of "Lost" cost the company $45 million, "Scrubs" came in at $26 million and "Desperate Housewives" totaled $12 million for a single year. The growth of Internet-based television has made it more difficult to purchase licensing inexpensively, and the company's current content licensing budget reflects this truth. In a statement to shareholders in early 2015, Netflix revealed that its budget for obtaining new licensing deals and renewing expiring arrangements for exclusive and non-exclusive content would exceed $6 billion through 2018. Netflix uses consumer data mining to determine which content viewers pay to see and relies heavily on this information to determine the total cost of each licensing agreement. According to Netflix officials, data is compiled to determine the expected hours of viewing each TV show or movie generates over the course of a licensing agreement, establishing a cost per hour viewed. It compares this metric to similar content arrangements, and it bases final pricing on exclusivity and the time frame of the contract. Not to mention that back in the day, streaming services weren't around. So while DVDs aren't as popular, VOD/services might be. Edited April 14, 2018 by LOGAN'sLuckyRun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOGAN'sLuckyRun Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) I found a site called "The Numbers" which has a pretty decent list of top selling films on home media (so far I can only find physical release, not digital) https://www.the-numbers.com/home-market/bluray-sales/2018 Coco and IT are selling the best. Not the best source bc like I said it's not VOD Edited April 14, 2018 by LOGAN'sLuckyRun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOGAN'sLuckyRun Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Like I said earlier, my main "argument" is that I don't think mid budget films are going to stop being made for theaters (for however long theaters are with us). Maybe Disney won't make them but plenty of other studios will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordmandeep Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, LOGAN'sLuckyRun said: Like I said earlier, my main "argument" is that I don't think mid budget films are going to stop being made for theaters (for however long theaters are with us). Maybe Disney won't make them but plenty of other studios will. That is why Disney will be king. They realize many people are not going to spend 20 bucks to watch random films in theaters in the future. Edited April 14, 2018 by Lordmandeep 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litio Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 It's weird seeing someone who supports piracy trying to convince people that the industry is dying because of piracy. It's like seeing a proud person admiring his own dirty work. 4 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOGAN'sLuckyRun Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said: That is why Disney will be king. They realize many people are not going to spend 20 bucks to watch random films in theaters in the future. I'll still see them and that's all that matters bc the only person I care about is myself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmlover Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 I don't know why everyone continues to engage with Mr. Concern Trolling. It's not worth it. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOGAN'sLuckyRun Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, filmlover said: I don't know why everyone continues to engage with Mr. Concern Trolling. It's not worth it. I'm no quitter! I'll argue until this thread gets locked and I'm banned!!! No, not really, I'm done now. Hell, I was probably wrong the whole time. I just don't want smaller films to die. I believe the movie going experience, despite its flaws, is fantastic. Edited April 14, 2018 by LOGAN'sLuckyRun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordmandeep Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Litio said: It's weird seeing someone who supports piracy trying to convince people that the industry is dying because of piracy. It's like seeing a proud person admiring his own dirty work. I do not really support piracy actually... I am just a realist and acknowledge Dinsey sees the future while you guys continue to be stuck in the past. Like music...movie piracy will go down and it is I think with VoD and Netflix. Sure the profit margins are not as far as DVDs but that is the market. Disney has read the tealeaves while some of you guys want the past to continue. Movie theaters will be a place of indie or award films and major blockbusters. Disney is betting on blockbusters. Edited April 14, 2018 by Lordmandeep 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOGAN'sLuckyRun Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said: Like music...movie piracy will go down and it is I think with VoD and Netflix. Sure the profit margins are not as far as DVDs but that is the market. WTF!? That was part of my argument. That studios still see money coming in from the avenues you just listed You gotta be trolling at this point right? This has to be bait. Are you a master baiter? Edited April 14, 2018 by LOGAN'sLuckyRun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnack Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, LOGAN'sLuckyRun said: I was looking for actual numbers on VOD though. I'm not talking physical. But I'm searching the Google and they're pretty hard to find. My main argument is that I don't think mid budget films are as doomed as people say they are. Pretty much every studio annual result break down feature film theatrical revenues, home ent, tv and merchandising, Liongates even do a breakdown from physical/non-physical home ent revenue by year and by release year slate. No need to rely on journalist and article on that one. I would not even be surprised that some comment on the movie business side that obviously never worked in worldwide movie studio distribution/accounting out there, but do not even do the very minimal basic of reading all the studio annual report and building a mental imagine of how it work, something impossible to suggest in most if not all any other financial type reporting, but they are talking to an audience that do not care (not investor for who reality matter) but fan's that want number just to talk about them online, regardless of how valid they are. In 2017 home ent spending was still larger than theatrical in the US with 20.5b vs 10.x b at the box office: http://deadline.com/2018/01/u-s-home-entertainment-spending-rises-to-20-5-billion-1202239252/ You can look at a couple of studio result to have some idea, I will try to give you some list but Liongates are the most detailled in revenues source breakdown. Edited April 14, 2018 by Barnack 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOGAN'sLuckyRun Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Barnack said: Pretty much every studio annual result break down feature film theatrical revenues, home ent, tv and merchandising, Liongates even do a breakdown from physical/non-physical home ent revenue by year and by release year slate. No need to rely on journalist and article on that one. In 2017 home ent spending was still larger than theatrical in the US with 20.5b vs 10.x b at the box office: http://deadline.com/2018/01/u-s-home-entertainment-spending-rises-to-20-5-billion-1202239252/ You can look at a couple of studio result to have some idea, I will try to give you some list but Liongates are the most detailled in revenues source breakdown. Thank you very much, man. This was exactly the type of data/info I was looking for! Edited April 14, 2018 by LOGAN'sLuckyRun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJimbo Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Litio said: It's weird seeing someone who supports piracy trying to convince people that the industry is dying because of piracy. It's like seeing a proud person admiring his own dirty work. Actually pretty normal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnack Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, LOGAN'sLuckyRun said: Thank you very much, man. This was exactly the type of data/info I was looking for! @Lordmandeep Here the trick to follow the decline of the home ent/movie on tv business. https://www.lionsgate.com/uploads/assets/2017AnnualReport.pdf 2017 fiscal year, for the motion picture business Liongates revenues sources breakdown were: Theatrical: 19.3% Home ent: 36.8% TV: 14.5% International: 27.8% (they sales those market, not distributing) other: 1.5% For the TV products: Dom television: 76.7% Intl: 17.8% home ent: 4.8% other: 0.8% In the movie business home entertainment was still by far the biggest revenues sources for a studio like liongates. If you remove direct to dvd products, movie release on home video alone for someone else and so on and look only at liongates movie getting a theatrical release the breakdown in 2017 of revenues was: Theatrical: 357m Home ent: 439.7m (packaged: 247m, digital: 192.7m) TV: 238.7m Intl: 439.7m Other's:18.2m Total: 1,490m If we remove international that is a block: Theatrical: 34% Home ent: 41.64% TV: 22.72% other: 1.7% That is not that different than all of sony release from 2006-2014 revenues breakdown Domestic Theatrical 18% Intl theatrical 17% DOMESTIC HOME ENT REVENUE 24% DOMESTIC HOME ENT PPV REVENUE 2% INTL HOME ENT REVENUE 11% INTL HOME ENT PPV REVENUE 1% DOMESTIC TV PPV REVENUE 1% DOMESTIC PAY TV REVENUE 6% DOMESTIC FREE TV REVENUE 4% INTERNATIONAL TELEVISION 16% AIRLINES AND MUSIC 1% CONSUMER PRODUCTS REVENUE 1% If you remove international it become Domestic Theatrical 32% DOMESTIC HOME ENT REVENUE 43% DOMESTIC HOME ENT PPV REVENUE 4% DOMESTIC TV PPV REVENUE 2% DOMESTIC PAY TV REVENUE 10% DOMESTIC FREE TV REVENUE 7% AIRLINES AND MUSIC 1% CONSUMER PRODUCTS REVENUE 2% Warner Brothers: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?t=1&item=UGFyZW50SUQ9NjYzMzAxfENoaWxkSUQ9Mzc1NjcxfFR5cGU9MQ== 2015 Theatrical: 1.578b Home Ent: 1.717b TV: 1.579b Others: 0.269b Total: 5.143b Theatrical was only 30.6% that year, because 2014 was a really strong slate (1.969 in theatrical rental) and 2015 a weak one. 2016 Theatrical: 2.18b Home ent: 1.481b TV: 1.63b Others: 0.321 Total : 5.612b Theatrical was 38.8% of their movies revenues, a particularly strong theatrical year because of Potter, BvS, Suicide Squad giant success. Universal https://www.cmcsa.com/static-files/111ba611-eb85-4edc-9000-3907c84697d8 2015: Theatrical: 2.829b (their monster year) Content licensing (streaming and tv): 1.923b Home ent: 1.801b Other: 0.734b Theatrical was: 38.8% 2016: Theatrical: 1.56b Content lic: 2.563b home ent: 1.254 other: 0.983 Theatrical was: 24.52% (when a weak year follow a really strong year it will do that, jurassic world, fast 7, etc... were on home video/tv in 2016) 2017: Theatrical: 2.192b content: 2.967b (streaming is getting more and more important for them) home ent: 1.326b Other: 1.173b Theatrical: 28.62% Yes Dvd went down and movies studio stopped to do in average around 170% a movie box office in revenues (i.e. in the 2006-2008 type era, a movie doing 100m at the box office could mean 170m in revenues for a studio, that give an idea of how strong sales were) but still most of the revenues seem to clearly be after the theatrical window in recent year's, except for the biggest 3d title that I imagine it is maybe not the case anymore or the big OW without legs that are not well liked. Has you see with the number above, lot of talk about the bigger and bigger reliance on theatrical for studios and deadline catastrophic revenues stream post theatrical scenario in their estimate, but I have yet to see that in an actual bottom line studio annual result, it is still going strong, Netflix and others are spending a fortune on studio content after all. Edited April 14, 2018 by Barnack 4 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudalb Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) The jobs that are going to be lost would have been lost no matter which studio the Fox Corporation decided to sell it's film division to. The basic decision to sell was made by Fox,who then approached Disney as the most likely buyer. When they could not at firs treach a deal Fox shopped it's offer around to other buyers,but in the end decided that The Mouse offer was the best they could get. It's not like the Mouse held a gun to Murdoch's head to make him sell,,the decision to sell was made by Fox because they felt it was their best business strategy;only question was which other film studio would make the best offer. No fan of the Disney corporation and have some real concerns about the deal..mainly what will happen with Fox Searchlight...but this demonization of Disney is just plain silly. Disney does not behave much different then other studios behave..Disney just executes it's strategy better. Edited April 14, 2018 by dudalb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordmandeep Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Barnack said: @Lordmandeep Here the trick to follow the decline of the home ent/movie on tv business. https://www.lionsgate.com/uploads/assets/2017AnnualReport.pdf 2017 fiscal year, for the motion picture business Liongates revenues sources breakdown were: Theatrical: 19.3% Home ent: 36.8% TV: 14.5% International: 27.8% (they sales those market, not distributing) other: 1.5% For the TV products: Dom television: 76.7% Intl: 17.8% home ent: 4.8% other: 0.8% In the movie business home entertainment was still by far the biggest revenues sources for a studio like liongates. If you remove direct to dvd products, movie release on home video alone for someone else and so on and look only at liongates movie getting a theatrical release the breakdown in 2017 of revenues was: Theatrical: 357m Home ent: 439.7m (packaged: 247m, digital: 192.7m) TV: 238.7m Intl: 439.7m Other's:18.2m Total: 1,490m If we remove international that is a block: Theatrical: 34% Home ent: 41.64% TV: 22.72% other: 1.7% That is not that different than all of sony release from 2006-2014 revenues breakdown Domestic Theatrical 18% Intl theatrical 17% DOMESTIC HOME ENT REVENUE 24% DOMESTIC HOME ENT PPV REVENUE 2% INTL HOME ENT REVENUE 11% INTL HOME ENT PPV REVENUE 1% DOMESTIC TV PPV REVENUE 1% DOMESTIC PAY TV REVENUE 6% DOMESTIC FREE TV REVENUE 4% INTERNATIONAL TELEVISION 16% AIRLINES AND MUSIC 1% CONSUMER PRODUCTS REVENUE 1% If you remove international it become Domestic Theatrical 32% DOMESTIC HOME ENT REVENUE 43% DOMESTIC HOME ENT PPV REVENUE 4% DOMESTIC TV PPV REVENUE 2% DOMESTIC PAY TV REVENUE 10% DOMESTIC FREE TV REVENUE 7% AIRLINES AND MUSIC 1% CONSUMER PRODUCTS REVENUE 2% Warner Brothers: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?t=1&item=UGFyZW50SUQ9NjYzMzAxfENoaWxkSUQ9Mzc1NjcxfFR5cGU9MQ== 2015 Theatrical: 1.578b Home Ent: 1.717b TV: 1.579b Others: 0.269b Total: 5.143b Theatrical was only 30.6% that year, because 2014 was a really strong slate (1.969 in theatrical rental) and 2015 a weak one. 2016 Theatrical: 2.18b Home ent: 1.481b TV: 1.63b Others: 0.321 Total : 5.612b Theatrical was 38.8% of their movies revenues, a particularly strong theatrical year because of Potter, BvS, Suicide Squad giant success. Universal https://www.cmcsa.com/static-files/111ba611-eb85-4edc-9000-3907c84697d8 2015: Theatrical: 2.829b (their monster year) Content licensing (streaming and tv): 1.923b Home ent: 1.801b Other: 0.734b Theatrical was: 38.8% 2016: Theatrical: 1.56b Content lic: 2.563b home ent: 1.254 other: 0.983 Theatrical was: 24.52% (when a weak year follow a really strong year it will do that, jurassic world, fast 7, etc... were on home video/tv in 2016) 2017: Theatrical: 2.192b content: 2.967b (streaming is getting more and more important for them) home ent: 1.326b Other: 1.173b Theatrical: 28.62% Yes Dvd went down and movies studio stopped to do in average around 170% a movie box office in revenues (i.e. in the 2006-2008 type era, a movie doing 100m at the box office could mean 170m in revenues for a studio, that give an idea of how strong sales were) but still most of the revenues seem to clearly be after the theatrical window in recent year's, except for the biggest 3d title that I imagine it is maybe not the case anymore or the big OW without legs that are not well liked. Has you see with the number above, lot of talk about the bigger and bigger reliance on theatrical for studios and deadline catastrophic revenues stream post theatrical scenario in their estimate, but I have yet to see that in an actual bottom line studio annual result, it is still going strong, Netflix and others are spending a fortune on studio content after all. 13 The issue is are they make as making as much net profit from aftermarket now than in the past? From what I can see a lot of these studios are more reliant on major blockbusters then ever so Disney's business model is the correct one . Edited April 14, 2018 by Lordmandeep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudalb Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 16 hours ago, Lordmandeep said: The concerns over jobs be lost to be are so fake when you guys did not give a crap about countless corporate mergers that led to far more jobs be cut or being outsourced in the spirit of free trade and globalization. Companies merge which produces synergy = jobs lost WHat gets to me is their blaming Disney for this, when it was Fox's decision to sell it's film division. if Fox had sold to Warners, Universal, Sony or any other studio the same amount of jobs would probably have been lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudalb Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 6 hours ago, Lordmandeep said: However as I said the after market revenues are way down now. Like I remember a flop movie like the kingdom generated over 75 million in rental revenues back in the days? Now? That is why Disney is going for the big tentpole style. And Disney,with it's streaming service, has decided to cut out the middle man of Netflix type services and keep all of the profits from stereaming for itself.\ It might not make up totally for the loss the suffered with the huge decline in rentals of "hard" (DVD/Bluray) copies of their movies, but they will make more with them keeping the share of the profits that would go to Netflix and other streaming companies. Surprised it took a major studio this long to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudalb Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 5 hours ago, LOGAN'sLuckyRun said: I was looking for actual numbers on VOD though. I'm not talking physical. But I'm searching the Google and they're pretty hard to find. My main argument is that I don't think mid budget films are as doomed as people say they are. Point is that the amount of money a film studio makes thourgh vod and streaming is much less then they made through the hard copy rentals. They can no longer sell blockbuster huge amounts of DVD's to rent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnack Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 5 hours ago, Lordmandeep said: The issue is are they make as making as much net profit from aftermarket now than in the past? From what I can see a lot of these studios are more reliant on major blockbusters then ever so Disney's business model is the correct one . Not exactly sure by what you mean exactly by the net profit question, EST has pretty much the best profit margin for a studio, SVOD is like TV it is almost 100% net profit, there is little spending going into letting a svod platform play your movie. For looking if they are making as much revenues from aftermarket now than in the past, we can take a look at older annual report and compare, that is pretty much the only way to go I think ? Warner brother for example, if we go back when the dvd bubble had yet to burst but toward the end: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1105705/000119312512077072/d284310d10k.htm 2009: theatrical: 2.085b home video: 2.82b tv: 1.46b other: 0.129 Total: 6.493b 2010: theatrical: 2.249b home video: 2.707b tv: 1.605b other: 0.125 Total: 6.686b Percentage of the revenues that came from theatrical in: 2009: 32.11% 2010: 33.64% Average: 32.875% ... 2015: 30.6% 2016: 38.8% Average: 34.7% Yes it became a bit more theatrically heavy, but it shifted from dvd to svod and didn't look like it changed by some drastic amount either. We could do the work at breaking down Liongates annual report that did until recently a nice breakdown of home video revenues for a particular bunch of movies (year's of theatrical release) to see the progression. Major blockbuster tend to open the door more to the world market that exploded in the last 10 year's than smaller personal stories, were most of the growth came from, 27.7b in 2008 with 9.6 billion from domestic in 2017 it was 40.6b with 11.1b from domestic, 88% of the growth of the last 10 year's was internationally, global reach product more and more the best options if you have the mean to make and distribute them for sure, but I am not sure how linked to the dvd that is. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
