The Marvels | November 10, 2023 | Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter

[ZattMurdock]

6 minutes ago, boxoff53 said:

Why do you keep making rebuttals to statements nobody made? I literally said people are willing to watch the movies, and I've never said a single word about the MCU  being a failure overall or at the box office.  I specifically said they've failed to get people invested, and then explained that there's a distinction to be made between investment and willingness to consume. 

How can you say that they failed get people invested if less than two years ago a film set in the MCU made $1.9B without a single cent from China? The MCU would never become bigger and bigger after Endgame, it would go back to the same pattern from before: huge blockbusters throughout the years with a breakout every three to four years. Here is an example of this pattern: Endgame (2019), No Way Home (2021). The next MCU film to break out is likely Deadpool 3 (2024), but it doesn’t mean that the other films didn’t do well at the box office either.

[boxoff53]

32 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

Oh so you are telling us that these films worked because people love those characters? I mean, isn’t that the point lol? You can’t replace Spider-Man with something that didn’t exist.

????? Are you going to pretend this whole conversation didn't start because i said people aren't invested in where the MCU is going? So no, that isn't the point, because we were never discussing if individual movies can get an audience. The point that you chose to dispute is that marvel hasn't gotten people invested in where the mcu is going. "I am willing to see this specific character in this specific instance " is nowhere near the same as "i'm excited for the next movie and I'm sure it'll at least be decent. It's marvel after all." 

 

You keep changing what point you're arguing and saying things that don't contradict the original thing that was said. In fact you just imagine things nobody said and then respond to those comments instead.  I find it tiring so I'm going to check out now. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by boxoff53

[Liiviig 1998]

@boxoff53 spare  yourself . All you will get a bunch of strawmans . MCU has been in decline .once again  It's not dead  . If Iger himself sees the issues at hand .

it's pointless having some arguments with some who think they know more than the man who literally sees the numbers himself and what's actually going behind the scenes has admitted we made some mistakes and some of this ain't working.

 

This argument has run it's course it's tiring now?

 

Is MCU dead . Fucking no.

 

Is it in a state of decline . Absolutely yes . A movie that opened 153m , it's sequel is now looking to drop 50% + from the original. Don't know what's more obvious than that. Numerous B CS.

 

 

 

 

[ZattMurdock]

22 minutes ago, boxoff53 said:

????? Are you going to pretend this whole conversation didn't start because i said people aren't invested in where the MCU is going? So no, that isn't the point, because we were never discussing if individual movies can get an audience. The point is that you chose to dispute is that marvel hasn't gotten people invested in where the mcu is going. "I am willing to see this specific character in this specific instance " is nowhere near the same as "i'm excited for the next movie and I'm sure it'll at least be decent. It's marvel after all." 

 

You keep changing what point you're arguing and saying things that don't contradict the original thing that was said. In fact you just imagine things nobody said and then respond to those comments instead.  I find it tiring so I'm going to check out now. 

 

18 minutes ago, Liiviig 1998 said:

@boxoff53 spare  yourself . All you will get a bunch of strawmans . MCU has been in decline .once again  It's not dead  . If Iger himself sees the issues at hand .

it's pointless having some arguments with some who think they know more than the man who literally sees the numbers himself and what's actually going behind the scenes has admitted we made some mistakes and some of this ain't working.

 

This argument has run it's course it's tiring now?

 

Is MCU dead . Fucking no.

 

Is it in a state of decline . Absolutely yes . A movie that opened 153m , it's sequel is now looking to drop 50% + from the original. Don't know what's more obvious than that. Numerous B CS.

 

 

 

 

I can literally do this all day, yes. Because it’s bullshit, and easily proven by those actually looking at the data:

 

 

I literally just bookmarked this graphic because here shows how much full of fallacies and holes your both arguments are. The MCU has always been made of peaks and valleys. This domestic graphic shows how much every single made at the domestic box office, from Iron Man (2008) to Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol. 3 (2023). Notice how many years it went by between The Avengers (2012) until Black Panther (2018) and Avengers: Infinity War (2018): it took Marvel Studios 5 years to the MCU to top The Avengers at the domestic box office market. Was all the films at ‘ the valley’ phase (2013-2017) a signal that Marvel Studios was "in decline" back then as well? Because trust me, this same "decline" talks aren’t nothing new, they were very much present since at very least Age of Ultron, if not earlier. I vividly remember people on this very forum with similar bold claims, saying that the MCU would never surpass The Avengers after Age of Ultron didn’t top that film back in 2015, and yet here we are today, having once again a discussion about the "MCU’s decline".
 

It’s funny because ten years from now, after Secret Wars and god knows what else blows up, literally the same talks about decline are going to be made, when in fact what ‘declined’ and ‘died’ was what once it was the DC Extended Universe, now renamed DC Cinematic Universe. There will always be peaks. There will always be valleys. Call me when a MCU film take more than 4 years between each other to surpass $600m domestic. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by ZattMurdock

[Liiviig 1998]

15 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

What do you think Secret Wars is about? Why we are having all this talk about ‘multiversal war’ and what not with Loki? You don’t get three Spider-Men without the multiverse aspect of it. Also, now Doctor Strange is bad because of its multiplier? Both films did what it did without China. Something that you surely know that BvS did have. I can twist numbers to look better than they actually are too, just like you are going out of your way to try alternative facts and will into existence a distaste to Marvel’s multiverse stories when reality points otherwise. Yes, a film featuring multiverses bombed, but that was The Flash, not No Way Home or Multiverse of Madness. What you are doing now is no different than the bullshit discourse that DCEU diehards would make back in the day saying that BvS was in fact a success, it’s mental gymnastics rhetoric that just makes for petty arguments. The numbers for No Way Home are astronomical, that’s precisely what Marvel Studios is angling with Secret Wars, but on steroids.

Dr strange had B+ CS. Which is bad for the MCU in terms of Audience reception.

 

I'm not altering facts. Multipliers do have considerable  correlation with reception of the film.  It varies from genre to genre and yeah they are other variables and some outliers like Civil war  and Endgame(massive OW) but both those movies are highly praised.

 

You can't say that with DS2 , discourse around it is mixed to negative.

 

You loved it fine but stop trying to pretend like it was well recieved when nothing really shows that.

74% critical rating is in range of IM2 ,IM3 and AOU which are still criticized and all have way better Cinemascores. 

 

Criticism of the multiverse aspect are from story and quality perspective.

 

No one is denying that phase 4 and 5 have had financial successes but most of them underperformed expectations . But reception is hit/miss  , audience enthusiasm is down  . Two box office bombs. Just look at marvels right now.

 

Your comments just keep ignoring this.

 

I'm done on this subject. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Liiviig 1998]

50 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

 

I can literally do this all day, yes. Because it’s bullshit, and easily proven by those actually looking at the data:

 

 

I literally just bookmarked this graphic because here shows how much full of fallacies and holes your both arguments are. The MCU has always been made of peaks and valleys. This domestic graphic shows how much every single made at the domestic box office, from Iron Man (2008) to Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol. 3 (2023). Notice how many years it went by between The Avengers (2012) until Black Panther (2018) and Avengers: Infinity War (2018): it took Marvel Studios 5 years to the MCU to top The Avengers at the domestic box office market. Was all the films at ‘ the valley’ phase (2013-2017) a signal that Marvel Studios was "in decline" back then as well? Because trust me, this same "decline" talks aren’t nothing new, they were very much present since at very least Age of Ultron, if not earlier. I vividly remember people on this very forum with similar bold claims, saying that the MCU would never surpass The Avengers after Age of Ultron didn’t top that film back in 2015, and yet here we are today, having once again a discussion about the "MCU’s decline".
 

It’s funny because ten years from now, after Secret Wars and god knows what else blows up, literally the same talks about decline are going to be made, when in fact what ‘declined’ and ‘died’ was what once it was the DC Extended Universe, now renamed DC Cinematic Universe. There will always be peaks. There will always be valleys. Call me when a MCU film take more than 4 years between each other to surpass $600m domestic. 

That graph is misleading .

Domestic is peaking and slumping based on the properties with some being more popular than others.

 

It's not a phase of MCU going through a phase of "peaks and slumps" as your claiming.

 

Phase 1 is when the franchise is starting out .

 

Ironman came out banging followed by incredible hulk then peaks up again IM2 then slumps again with FA and Thor then exploding with the avengers . 

 

Same for phase 2 . Of course IM3 had to come down from avengers ,Thor did the same , WS rose a little then GOTG 3 rose from there ,then antman fell , ofcorse AOU had to rise over antman.

 

This chart is pointless metric for the argument . It's just showing the domestic grosses of the movies.

 

The movies with the highest peaks are the assemble movies and BP which was mega breakout.

 

Ofcorse reception is involved but not all these MCU sub franchises have the same Audience reach.

 

Avengers  movies attract more audience interest than like a standalone movie . BP was the only outlier.

 

Even NWH was an assmble film.

 

 

So alot more variables have to be considered.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Liiviig 1998

[BadOlCatSylvester]

This post hits the nail on the head for me regarding these new rumours:

Spoiler

 

 

[SpiderByte]

1 hour ago, BadOlCatSylvester said:

This post hits the nail on the head for me regarding these new rumours:

  Hide contents

 

 

Not remotely similar lol. One was actively being promoted by the lead, the other is a Twitter rumor

[ZattMurdock]

Back on 5th of June of 2017 people were already claiming that the sky was falling for the MCU. I’m merely pointing it out that users like @Liiviig 1998 and @boxoff53 albeit newer to this message board, didn’t invent the "MCU’s decline". This rhetoric hasn’t started after Avengers: Endgame, and it will never go away, regardless how silly it is. grey ghost is an old timer like myself and a MCU fan, he was just trying to point out that "Avengers 3" would do well at a box office. A lot of gems can be found on this club, but this is just one example of many, many others. It’s Groundhog Day, and we’ve been dancing this dance literally since 2012’s The Avengers. Exact the same for "superhero fatigue".

 

 

@grey ghost

 

[SchumacherFTW]

Dude, chill already, Jesus Christ

[ZattMurdock]

Just now, SchumacherFTW said:

Dude, chill already, Jesus Christ

It’s a stupid rhetoric and easy to debunk for those who have been around here long enough. Nice posts on that club there, btw. And what can I say? I just love being right, especially when it’s about box office of a franchise I care about. 

[SchumacherFTW]

Just now, ZattMurdock said:

It’s a stupid rhetoric and easy to debunk for those who have been around here long enough. Nice posts on that club there, btw. And what can I say? I just love being right, especially when it’s about box office of a franchise I care about. 

Right or wrong, you're consistently picking a fight. It's not big, it's not clever and you're likely on your way to a suspension on opening weekend. Just chill out already, let people have different opinions. People not liking a property or believing it's in free fall isn't an attack on you and doesn't need to be treated as such. 

[ZattMurdock]

Just now, SchumacherFTW said:

Right or wrong, you're consistently picking a fight. It's not big, it's not clever and you're likely on your way to a suspension on opening weekend. Just chill out already, let people have different opinions. People not liking a property or believing it's in free fall isn't an attack on you and doesn't need to be treated as such. 

Discussing box office is what we do here. It’s not a fight to point out silly and easily to debunk rhetorics. We keep seeing people repeating about how "Marvel’s decline" started after Avengers: Endgame, but people claiming this didn’t start before that film. Everyone can love or hate whatever they want, but claiming that the "Marvel’s decline" started after Endgame if we’ve been arguing about a “Marvel’s decline" even two years Endgame became the biggest film in the world, it’s relevant to point out that this isn’t a new argument. You can hate the MCU. You just can’t claim that it’s "on a decline", when films have been behaving with peaks and valleys and people claiming its demise since the beginning of the franchise. 

[JustLurking]

lol

[SchumacherFTW]

1 minute ago, ZattMurdock said:

Discussing box office is what we do here. It’s not a fight to point out silly and easily to debunk rhetorics. We keep seeing people repeating about how "Marvel’s decline" started after Avengers: Endgame, but people claiming this didn’t start before that film. Everyone can love or hate whatever they want, but claiming that the "Marvel’s decline" started after Endgame if we’ve been arguing about a “Marvel’s decline" even two years Endgame became the biggest film in the world, it’s relevant to point out that this isn’t a new argument. You can hate the MCU. You just can’t claim that it’s "on a decline", when films have been behaving with peaks and valleys and people claiming its demise since the beginning of the franchise. 

People can claim whatever they like. Opinions, data, it doesn't matter. This is a discussion forum, not a "this is objective fact and if you disagree with me you are wrong" place. You aren't discussing box office, you're consistently fighting to the death to defend a franchise as if your life depends on it. Stop acting like the MCU is a victim, it doesn't need your help. 

[Mulder]

36 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

Back on 5th of June of 2017 people were already claiming that the sky was falling for the MCU. I’m merely pointing it out that users like @Liiviig 1998 and @boxoff53 albeit newer to this message board, didn’t invent the "MCU’s decline". This rhetoric hasn’t started after Avengers: Endgame, and it will never go away, regardless how silly it is. grey ghost is an old timer like myself and a MCU fan, he was just trying to point out that "Avengers 3" would do well at a box office. A lot of gems can be found on this club, but this is just one example of many, many others. It’s Groundhog Day, and we’ve been dancing this dance literally since 2012’s The Avengers. Exact the same for "superhero fatigue".

 

 

@grey ghost

 

Not going to reply to this after this so don't bother quoting or arguing, but having also been on here during that timeframe what BOT was saying about the MCU from 2016 & 2017 and what's being said now are entirely different. During 2016 & 2017 what was being said is that the MCU had hit a natural height. Still capable of delivering big opening weekends but nothing quite Avengers 1 level. This was based on what was viewed by some as underperformances vs expectations (AoU, CW).  Was it short-sighted? A bit. Yet it was entirely different rhetoric. What's being said now is entirely different and is definitely backed up way more strongly. 

[ZattMurdock]

1 minute ago, SchumacherFTW said:

People can claim whatever they like. Opinions, data, it doesn't matter. This is a discussion forum, not a "this is objective fact and if you disagree with me you are wrong" place. You aren't discussing box office, you're consistently fighting to the death to defend a franchise as if your life depends on it. Stop acting like the MCU is a victim, it doesn't need your help. 

Hence why I’ve said that it doesn’t matter. Clearly, you have your biases and I have mine, just like these new users have. I still insist that data isn’t debatable. Hard numbers aren’t debatable. Being passionate about box office comes for a place of love for film, and yeah, I do love the MCU. Just like a lot of folks love Cameron’s Avatar, Star Wars, DC films, etc. Pointing out that this isn’t new isn’t a fight for me, I do it because discussing about box office can be maddening some times with different people making the same arguments over and over only to the numbers to prove them wrong again. No one should expect that after Endgame, every MCU film would only go up from that point forward, and I mean that even with no covid in the picture.

 

If our ‘discussions’ will be silly petty fights with you or any other attacking me for providing evidence that an old argument can easily be debunked, that’s a silly debate that I have no interest to have. I stick around despite finding a lot of the silly discussions just shallow, there is still glimpses of brilliance on this place. I had great convos about box office here about films I love, and I do think it’s important to set some basic common sense.
 

I’ve been on the wrong side of arguments about historical numbers before, mind you. I didn’t believe that Avatar 2 could get as high as it did, despite not topping A1. I learned to never doubt Cameron’s Avarar ever again, that’s development, that’s better understanding of box office in my opinion. I’m just not interested on silly bickering and people using the same arguments of one decade ago about a decline that never comes. If Deadpool 3 doesn’t blow up and the Avengers films crash and burn by all means, claim the Marvel’s decline. But that didn’t happen, despite people hating or loving the MCU, I do think that understanding how big of a franchise the MCU, Avatar or Star Wars are is important when we are seriously discussing box office. 

I’m not interested on mocking you or anyone here for being interested at the box office run of any franchise, I’m being a fan of them or not. If you think that’s what you want from this message board then cool, but clearly you and I won’t get along well.

[Eric Burnett]

Moderation

 

ZattMurdock has been threadbanned for three days for ad hominem and straw man attacks, and consistent detailing of the thread. Please move along.

[Hatebox]

I’m sure this time he’ll learn his lesson 

[Arlborn]

9 hours ago, abracadabra1998 said:

This is why I’ve really grown to dislike marvel, and more generally, modern blockbusters, these kinds of things are just so lazy. Putting in random cameos to bring in a few more bucks. Like Black Adam. Or the Wonder Woman ones in the latest DC movies, so unbelievably bad.

 

Don’t mean to start a “marvel bad” discussion for the nth time but it’s just so lazy it’s frustrating 

If all the rumors about it are true, and it seems like they are, the scene is supposed to be moving the storyline of the phase 5 along and connecting some points between quite a few past and future films. It’s not an aimless cameo at all to generate buzz without a plan, it’s literally storyline connective tissue.

 

It’s interesting that so many people have been complaining about that the movies aren’t connecting enough and now that there are apparently two different unrelated connective scenes in this movie(and one isn’t even a post-credit scene but part of the movie itself) bringing together new MCU superheroes that haven’t interacted on screen yet and setting up future interactions and movies, suddenly it’s a desperate move by the MCU.

 

Also, just a reminder that those are actual leaks, not things the MCU marketed at all. They aren’t official, therefore they are not actually part of a marketing push or anything. Do not be surprised if they decide to lean on it during the last marketing push days before release though since the cat is already out of the bag.

 

I don’t know, criticism of it as something desperate just feels wildly unfair considering that it all seems planned well in advance and will meaningfully connect to future movies. It feels like if this were done in a phase 1-3 movie people would hype it up as genius rather than call it desperate, but maybe that’s just a sign that the fatigue is real after all.

 

 

As a personal note, I wish I hadn’t read about all of it, I’ve realized since Infinity Wars (where I knew everything that would happen beforehand) that I enjoy movies better when I go in unspoiled, but I was just too damn curious this time around, oh well.

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Arlborn