The Marvels | November 10, 2023 | Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter

[BadOlCatSylvester]

8 minutes ago, AMC Theaters Enjoyer said:

 

Agreed, I am genuinely shocked that they stuck through with the November date even after it was clear the strike wasn't ending by mid-September. 

 

I've said this before, but if your film is being sold on the dynamic between your leads....why would you not want to make sure said leads are out promoting the film together? This isn't a criticism of the film, more on Disney for being morons. 

Between the turmoil inside Marvel right now, and the Loki finale being placed on The Marvels's opening day, I can't help but get the feeling that Disney doesn't feel very confident in the movie. I feel that if they did, then this'd be pushed to next February or May. With Marvel being busy with other, more important manners, Disney probably doesn't see a proper promotional cycle as worth it. Especially since this movie was made during the streaming gold rush earlier in the decade, and thus represents a bygone era.

[Kon]

28 minutes ago, AMC Theaters Enjoyer said:

 

Agreed, I am genuinely shocked that they stuck through with the November date even after it was clear the strike wasn't ending by mid-September. 

 

I've said this before, but if your film is being sold on the dynamic between your leads....why would you not want to make sure said leads are out promoting the film together? This isn't a criticism of the film, more on Disney for being morons. 

 

The most likely reason is that Disney/Marvel don't have any expectative or care for this film anymore.

 

They likely expected The Marvels being a sequel to Captain Marvel and Ms Marvel would generate a lot of interest, but it didn't. At this point, I think they just prefer to save these promotion and delay costs, so they will just send the movie to die.

 

 

Honestly, the promotion may increase The Marvels box office at some level, but this would hardly be significant. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Kon

[Zakiyyah6]

Dune Part 2 is a serious Sci Fi movie, which is not exactly a beloved genre in the eyes of the general population, it absolutely needed a lovable Zendaya and Timothée Chalamet fronted promo campaign to be the biggest hit that it could be. Is Captain Marvel THAT dependent on the actors promo? Absolutely not. Not having the actors will hurt it, I don't deny that but not to the degree it would hurt something like Dune. And I'm not the first to say this in here but Brie Larson isn't exactly amazing at promoting these big films. Even quite a few non bigots find her off-putting. A friend of mine is a big SJW type and found Larson off-putting, so no this sentiment isn't just coming from the geeks and gamers crowd. 

[TwoMisfits]

OT: But you know, I was thinking about Kang and the Ant Man movie last night.  And wouldn't it have been better (and more ballsy) if the Ant-crew had to sacrifice themselves to save and get the kid back to warn about the coming of Kang.  And the reason Kang doesn't see it coming is that he couldn't believe a former criminal would ever make the choice to end his own life for the sake of saving his kid?  So, all 4 characters die, with Cassie getting back and that particular Kang being still trapped?

 

That would have kicked off Kang with a bang.  But an Ant Man movie was probably the wrong place for that kinda play...

[Valonqar]

9 hours ago, THUNDER BIRD said:

Problem with Captain Marvel is not Captain Marvel, it's Carol Denvers. Captain Marvel is a persona, Carol Denvers is a person. That's the issue with most of Phase 4.

 

MCU Infinity Saga was so successful because people used to come for Iron Man or Captain America, but they used to stay for Tony Stark & Steve Rogers.

 

Same for most of the characters, this is what gives the context to Iron Man or Captain America and all that action & explosions. It was all so personal, and people connected with it.

 

9 hours ago, THUNDER BIRD said:

That's what makes a person in costume doing action different to another person in costume doing action.

 

Make people care about the person, then they'll react to even a single punch thrown by the persona.

 

If people don't care about the person, they won't care if the persona can blow away an army single-handedly.

 

 

 

This is underrated yet 100% on the money. Actors + character writing in P1-3 is why audience connected with MCU and was willing to overlook rough spots. When people care, they suspend the disbelief and overlook plotholes. When they don't care, they don't suspend the disbelief but zero on stupidity, inconsistencies, plot holes.

 

9 hours ago, Bob Train said:

MCU has wasted all its female characters so far. Black Widow was not given a movie until after she died. Wanda was given the most nonsensical motivations ever in MoM, butchering her character. Captain Marvel is written in the most boring way possible and had a 5-minute screentime nothing burger role in Endgame.

 

Let's hope they do better with X-Men, as so far the female characters have been handled very badly. 

 

I think that the only reason why Marvel didn't want to give BW a solo movie is that she had no super powers. So when DC threw a gaintlet with Wonder Woman aka we will have a solo female hero movie first, they wanted to match that on power level rather than popularity one. So even though a BW movie was in actualf fandom demand, more logical and easier to do and fit in (assuming it would be a real spy movie, not that nonsense that served only to introduce Yelena rather than say more about Natasha) they went with the power puff character. And I think that hiring Boden and Flick was necessary evil cause they couldn't find a female director (another gauntlet thrown by DC) so Boden half of the duo checked that box. And amnesia plot was probably cause they had no clue what to do with Carol and what kind of character they wanted her to be since they were in a rush to just have the movie out for optics. All those characterisation problems wouldn't exist if they made BW movie since she already had perosnality. Oh well.

 

[PlatnumRoyce]

1 hour ago, Valonqar said:

I think that the only reason why Marvel didn't want to give BW a solo movie is that she had no super powers

That's a reasonable theory in the 2010s but I think we have multiple comments that range from smoking gun to 80% of a smoking gun that show it really was about skepticism of gender. This has been supported by Feige's statements on record and numerous off record statements including in that big new MCU book. Heck, it appears Black Widow was in danger from being cut from Avengers for being a woman. As Ruffalo said in 2020 (found in new ringer MCU book)

Quote

“When we did the first Avengers, Kevin Feige told me, ‘Listen, I might not be here tomorrow.’ And he’s like, ‘Ike does not believe that anyone will go to a female-starring super movie.’ So if I am still here tomorrow you will know that I won that battle.’

There's also stuff like the summary of a conversation with Perlmutter in sony hack.

. 

 

[Valonqar]

still, CM came well after Pearlmutter was gone so why didn't they elevate BW to solo movie first and then add CM and other solo women movies? Why start with CM? That had nada to do with Pearlmutter.

[Willowra]

1 hour ago, Valonqar said:

 

 

This is underrated yet 100% on the money. Actors + character writing in P1-3 is why audience connected with MCU and was willing to overlook rough spots. When people care, they suspend the disbelief and overlook plotholes. When they don't care, they don't suspend the disbelief but zero on stupidity, inconsistencies, plot holes.

 

 

I think that the only reason why Marvel didn't want to give BW a solo movie is that she had no super powers. So when DC threw a gaintlet with Wonder Woman aka we will have a solo female hero movie first, they wanted to match that on power level rather than popularity one. So even though a BW movie was in actualf fandom demand, more logical and easier to do and fit in (assuming it would be a real spy movie, not that nonsense that served only to introduce Yelena rather than say more about Natasha) they went with the power puff character. And I think that hiring Boden and Flick was necessary evil cause they couldn't find a female director (another gauntlet thrown by DC) so Boden half of the duo checked that box. And amnesia plot was probably cause they had no clue what to do with Carol and what kind of character they wanted her to be since they were in a rush to just have the movie out for optics. All those characterisation problems wouldn't exist if they made BW movie since she already had perosnality. Oh well.

 

Why would MCU male fans (those who hate Captain Marvel) not like BW? They know she is a supporting character in the overall MCU narrative, and they don't feel threatened or insecure by supporting female characters, whereas they feel insecure by Captain Marvel. They don't want her to get the same or more importance than male characters, so there is disinterest in watching her movie. If you go to Reddit or other social platforms, you'll notice this. A MCU movie can't go this low (5-7m in previews) unless there is a boycott from a large section of MCU fans. Now what should Marvel Studios have done in such a situation? They should have either announced her lead or one of the leads of the next Avengers movie if she is actually going to lead Avengers(so that GA take more interest in the character), and if she isn't going to lead Avengers, then they should've made it clear to those male fans.

[Liiviig 1998]

7 hours ago, Madhuvan said:

Again have to say that and I agree with many of you

 

The film should have been titled:

 

Captain Marvel: Secret Invasion 

 

Monica has a bit of a role and in the end, becomes an important secondary character/lead character

Kamala is teased in the end and after that, they could have made The Marvels or CM3. whatever they wanted 

Do you one better?

 

Yeah the title works and it continues from the story of CM. Skrulls were first introduced in this movie so the sequel dealing with secret invasion type would make sense.

 

To give it more weight ,make it like civil war were it's sort of like an avengers film and that would be more exciting.

 

Instead we got pointless terrible show that spits on everything started in the first movie.

 

The marvels which until proven otherwise just looks bland and uninteresting.

[John Marston]

2 hours ago, Valonqar said:

still, CM came well after Pearlmutter was gone so why didn't they elevate BW to solo movie first and then add CM and other solo women movies? Why start with CM? That had nada to do with Pearlmutter.

Yep Captain Marvel pushing is all Feige’s doing. He was flat out saying CM was going to be the new face of the MCU during CM promotion 

[PlatnumRoyce]

Glancing at the MCU book, it seems like the first CM movie gets pegged with some of the problems of phase 4 stuff like Wandavision/MoM. 

 

Quote

LeFauve and Perlman had plenty of time to contemplate their screenplay’s themes, because as Marvel Studios hurtled toward Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame, it kept tinkering with its plans for how Phase Three would work, and how Captain Marvel would fit in. “That process went on for well over a year and a half. They would talk about it whenever they had time between shooting everything else,” Perlman said. “And every time we talked about it, something different had changed with what they were going to do with the Avengers. So it wasn’t a straightforward ‘Just come up with a great story.’ It was, ‘Come up with five different versions of what this could look like.’ And ‘Here are five and then we’ll talk about what’s working from each of them and then we’ll do it again.’ It was iterative.”

Quote

The studio was having trouble hiring a director, because it was hard to attract talent to a movie whose concept was still inchoate and clearly secondary to the two upcoming Avengers movies. “We’re trying to get a little more of the story set before we bring a filmmaker on,” Feige said in October 2016. 

 

 

[Valonqar]

4 hours ago, John Marston said:

Yep Captain Marvel pushing is all Feige’s doing. He was flat out saying CM was going to be the new face of the MCU during CM promotion 

 

Exactly, not to mention they even fridged BW around 40-45 min into a 3 hrs long Endgame so she was the only super heroine that didn't participate in the big battle that had other women rally for CM. Did Pearlmutter come up with that or approve it? No "geee, out of 5 male OGs, are we really going to kill the only female one and so early into the story? How about Hawkeye instead?" Nada, Kevin.

 

It's like "WB forced PJ to cut 3 Hobbit movies" excuse when in reality it was all his idea. No one is infallible, least of all people from entertainment industry (producers, directors, actors) and politicians and therefore they shouldn't be idolized. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Valonqar

[Bob Train]

If only Dune 2 didn't move, then I could've made a Dune 2nd weekend > Marvels OW club.

[Johnny Tran]

15 hours ago, Liiviig 1998 said:

220m . UK tax subsidy  is already deducted from that.

 

'

So it needs maybe $500M or so to break even? 

[Mojoguy]

3 minutes ago, Bob Train said:

If only Dune 2 didn't move, then I could've made a Dune 2nd weekend > Marvels OW club.

Barbie OW > Marvels DOM total

[Johnny Tran]

9 hours ago, TwoMisfits said:

That would have kicked off Kang with a bang.  But an Ant Man movie was probably the wrong place for that kinda play...

 

A lot of people including myself agreed when it was released that Kang looked like a jobber in that movie.   He needed to accomplish a goal to set things in motion.  That doesn't necessarily mean everyone had to die but it would have been a wild start to his saga.  

[SpiderByte]

It may be worth considering there may be an issue with Disney's marketing company wide. A lot of OWs going underneath expectations, not just Marvel. Elemental hoofed it out with incredible legs but it opened pretty weak.

[The GOAT]

Black Widow, Shang Chi, Eternals, Doctor Strange 2 , Thor 4, Wakanda Forever, Quantumania really screwed the pooch. 

[Zakiyyah6]

Shang Chi and Wakanda Forever had solid to good audience receptions. It is false to claim that they didn't. And even Black Widow's reception was fine. The problem started with Eternals.

[Bob Train]

After reading plot leak...IDK if this can get fresh. On paper it shouldn't be too hard to end up fresh like Black Widow, Ant 2, or Captain Marvel did, which didn't have much substance but critics found them passable.

 

But MCU keeps stepping more and more into the gutter, with a few recent exceptions. So this ending with Quantumania/Eternals tier (or even Thor 4 tier) reviews wouldn't be too surprising