The Book of Boba Fett | December 29, 2021 | Temuera Morrison and Ming-Na Wen star

[Porthos]

6 minutes ago, Menor Reborn said:

So is it confirmed that Robert Rodriguez is doing the finale? After these last two episodes, it's gonna be really annoying if the big action set piece (which I think is coming) is gonna be done in his style. 

 

It has been mentioned that he directed three episodes, and he's already directed two (Ep1 and Ep3) with only one left to go, so...

Edited February 2, 2022 by Porthos

[dudalb]

I was ready to write this off before the last few episodes.

I have seldom seen  a show change in midair like this,..and even then it was an attempt to salvage the show after a bad reception, but that can't be the case here since the whole thing was shot before it aired.

I am not one of those people who is in love with anything with the name "Star Wars" on it,so I came pretty close to just not wasting my time wathcing this again after the first four episodes. Glad I gave it another chance.

[Menor the Destroyer]

3 hours ago, Porthos said:

 

It has been mentioned that he directed three episodes, and he's already directed two (Ep1 and Ep3) with only one left to go, so...

Ugh. Well, hopefully he does better here, but I'm not holding my breath. 

Spoiler

I just really hope the vibe of the last couple of scenes before the final Grogu ending (Cad Bane and the cantina bombing) continues over to the whole finale and it doesn't succumb to that low-energy feeling of episodes 1 and 3 (and 4 to an extent). Tbh those scenes in E6 were kinda what I was hoping the whole show would feel like from the start. 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Menor Reborn

[cax16]

Good episode, tense showdown! 

[Porthos]

An non-plot/non-structure of the series comment, but nonetheless very spolierific:

 

Spoiler

Can I just say:  GOD DAMN,  the deaging/deepfaking/sfx work on Luke Skywalker was a million times better than it was for the season finale of S2 of Mando.

 

Like, made me almost reconsider my stance that LFL should still recast if they were ever gonna do a full on live action series with Luke as a character.

 

It might not be 100 percent perfect, but it wasn't jarring or distracting and it was in far more varied shots, for far longer.

 

Seriously, major props to ILM there.  Just amazing work.

 

[Darth Lehnsherr]

10 hours ago, Menor Reborn said:

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I don't think that it's ever been clear to me that Luke's attachment to his father was what saved the day. I think it's a popular fan headcanon because the "no attachment" rule seems very opposed to a lot of the values in modern society, but there has never been much canon evidence that avoiding attachment was a bad thing on the whole. The whole purpose of the ROTJ scene is illustrating the difference between attachment (selfish) love and compassionate (selfless) love. Anakin sacrifices his life to save Luke (he gets no benefit and purely does this for Luke, as opposed to with Padme, when he does all kinds of horrible things just so that he won't lose her). As far as this episode, it seems clear that Luke is essentially asking Grogu to choose between being a Mandalorian and being a Jedi because the two cultures/lifestyles are pretty diametrically opposed.

 

Spoiler

That's some good points I think I've always just used love and attachment interchangably to describe Luke's sacrifice but you're right it's about where the love comes from which is central to Filoni's (and by extension Lucas) thesis on Star Wars which is selfish vs selfless. Ahsoka makes a good point about while Mando does genuinely care about Grogu ofc it is also partly because he currently has no real purpose in his life and he needs something to look to. 

 

We'll see with Grogu I'm pretty certain that eventually he goes back to Mando which would be a nice turn that someone rejects the Jedi path but also I'm sure Disney would love if Mando and Grogu continue to have adventures together

 

[Porthos]

30 minutes ago, Darth Lehnsherr said:

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That's some good points I think I've always just used love and attachment interchangably to describe Luke's sacrifice but you're right it's about where the love comes from which is central to Filoni's (and by extension Lucas) thesis on Star Wars which is selfish vs selfless. Ahsoka makes a good point about while Mando does genuinely care about Grogu ofc it is also partly because he currently has no real purpose in his life and he needs something to look to. 

 

We'll see with Grogu I'm pretty certain that eventually he goes back to Mando which would be a nice turn that someone rejects the Jedi path but also I'm sure Disney would love if Mando and Grogu continue to have adventures together

 

Spoiler

Also ties in well with some of the undercurrents of the Sequel Trilogy about Luke not (sufficiently) learning from the mistakes of the Jedi Past. 

 

It is a rather big contrast with Luke of the Legends continuity, and one a lot of fans don't generally like too much, but do think it ties in rather well with the path Luke is seen to have trod by the time we see him in the ST.

 

Aside from that, there is the selfless/ishness angle that Filoni does seem to buy into.  On the other hand, and @Inceptionzq could talk more about this as this is his department, from what I understand, the Jedi of the High Republic era weren't quite so anal about all of this so it's not like this is the only path that a Lightsider could take.  

 

Is a rather rational one for Luke to take though, if not the only one.  Especially if he's mostly going alone here and thus doesn't have many alternate... points of view to draw on.

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Porthos

[George Parr]

What feels a bit odd to me, is the following:

 

Spoiler

Obi Wan and Yoda didn't really teach Luke the way they taught Jedi in the prequels. Add in his own experience, and his stance kind of comes out of nowhere. You basically have to read it as a "I don't really know how to be a teacher, so this a a bit weird to me. Since I don't know how to do this, I'll also go strictly by what I read in a few Jedi-books I found, instead of by my own experience".

 

Certainly something you can go with. Though I wish they would have driven that point home a bit more, if that was indeed what they were aiming for.

 

[CoolioD1]

this show is like if fraiser spent 4 episodes being about fraiser and then was like "actually we have no idea what to do with fraiser let's see what sam and the gang are up to".

[Cap]

16 hours ago, Porthos said:

Like, made me almost reconsider my stance that LFL should still recast if they were ever gonna do a full on live action series with Luke as a character.

 

Spoiler

I had the exact opposite reaction. I thought he looked completely dead in the eyes, and I found the voice acting from Mark super flat. I actually was like they should’ve cast who should not be named. You just can’t fake the micro expressions and it was hard without them. But I also found that whole sequence to be very frustrating because I was like so glad that Luke didn’t learn anything, and where is force ghost anakin to be like oh my God kid why are we doing this again!!!!

 

[Porthos]

7 minutes ago, Cap said:

 

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 I actually was like they should’ve cast who should not be named.

 

Spoiler

lol.

 

(couldn't give the actual post a  reaction, as that'd be unfair.  But this bit def made me chuckle a bit, given your well known antipathy to You Know Who.

 

===

 

As for the other comments, fair enough.  Can't say I agree, but I see where you're coming from. 

 

FWIW, the voice acting might seem off a bit because the speech (presumably still) has been computer-generated via newfangled speech technology ala what happened in the Bourdain documentary, if without all of the controversy that happened there.  I don't know if you already knew this or not, but I thought I'd mention it for folks who hadn't seen the BtS documentary for the S2 Mando Finale that came out a while back.

 

[Cap]

@Porthos

 

That all seems incredibly complicated for an issue which could be resolved way more efficiently, and probably with less money, if you just were bold enough to do it.

[Porthos]

25 minutes ago, Cap said:

@Porthos

 

That all seems incredibly complicated for an issue which could be resolved way more efficiently, and probably with less money, if you just were bold enough to do it.

 

I mean, I'm still in Camp You Know Who, but part of ILM's DNA is technical innovation for technical innovation's sake, so I can understand the impulse they have, if not agree with it.

 

(plus finicky fandom being at play)

 

Then again...

 

Spoiler

What would have fandom's reaction to TROS have been if they had recast Leia?  Looking back, a recast was preferable to what actually occurred.  But given everything else that surrounded that movie, adding that on top of all of the other discourse... would have been a choice.

 

Maybe if the GA/fandom had better received Alden as Han Solo, Lucasfilm wouldn't be so fucking gun shy about recasts.  On the other hand, there is that Tech For Techs sake drive I mentioned, so perhaps not.

 

Ultimately, I still think recasts are preferable, but I can't say I wasn't impressed by the leaps and bounds from S2 Mando Luke to BOBF Luke.

 

Then again, I think all things considered recasting should probably be done more in current big blockbuster series. The aversion to recasts has a lot of unfortunate and at times unforseen side effects and consequences, as is currently being seen over in a particular Marvel film in production right now (not the thread, but is a case study as to why recasts might be better in some cases).

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Porthos

[Menor the Destroyer]

Spoiler

I like the CGI Luke. I thought it looked pretty good. There is a bit of uncanny valley here but it's definitely getting better and I think I like it much better than recasts. 

 

Also @Cap I think Anakin's force ghost, if anything, would encourage Luke to forgo attachments. He probably feels guilty about letting his attachment to Padme drive him to evil. 

 

[Inceptionzq]

9 hours ago, Porthos said:

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Also ties in well with some of the undercurrents of the Sequel Trilogy about Luke not (sufficiently) learning from the mistakes of the Jedi Past. 

 

It is a rather big contrast with Luke of the Legends continuity, and one a lot of fans don't generally like too much, but do think it ties in rather well with the path Luke is seen to have trod by the time we see him in the ST.

 

Aside from that, there is the selfless/ishness angle that Filoni does seem to buy into.  On the other hand, and @Inceptionzq could talk more about this as this is his department, from what I understand, the Jedi of the High Republic era weren't quite so anal about all of this so it's not like this is the only path that a Lightsider could take.  

 

Is a rather rational one for Luke to take though, if not the only one.  Especially if he's mostly going alone here and thus doesn't have many alternate... points of view to draw on.

 

Spoiler

The High Republic Jedi definitely weren't as anal about feeling selfish emotions, which is what I assume you're saying about them? They emphasize that it is ok to feel emotions, the good and the bad. You just can't let these emotions consume you. Which isn't unlike the PT Jedi on the surface, but somewhere along the years the Jedi became less open about their issues. The HR Jedi seem to be more open about their emotions, though they're not perfect in that regard at times.

 

A popular comparison among HR fans is Elzar Mann vs Anakin. Elzar Mann is similar in that he struggles with the Dark Side and his emotions. But he came forward to Stellan Gios who gave him the help he needed. Of course, even after going through this "therapy", he still falls to his emotions at times. But IIRC, he resolves to tell someone about what he did. He has a support system that he can rely on to help better himself.

 

On the other hand, Anakin keeps a lot of things to himself. Although I'm sure that Obi-Wan and Yoda would support Anakin and help him, being open about their issues has become less commonplace. For whatever reason, which is part of what the High Republic will explore, I think the PT Jedi have become much more worried about emotions consuming themselves. Which has led to Jedi hiding their emotions and issues more often.

 

I guess the difference is that the HR Jedi openly recognize that attachment happens to most, if not all, people. But when it happens, they strive to overcome it. In the Prequels era, I would say that they want to avoid it happening in the first place. Which is extremely hard to do. I think a good way to compare this is through these quotes

 

Yoda said, "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

 

Sskeer said, "Most Jedi have felt the temptation of the dark side. It is only natural. But we resist it. It is a deliberate path to the dark, not a series of bad days. Being a Jedi is about choosing the light over and over again."

 

Yoda is not wrong, but that doesn't mean a Jedi can't feel fear, anger, hate, or suffering. Which is not to say Yoda doesn't think a Jedi can't fear, but I think there's a kind of a view that it is dangerous to feel those emotions. That you should try not to even feel those kinds of things. When Anakin meets with Yoda about his dreams in RoTS, Yoda says not to mourn or miss those that you lose. I suppose you could say that the Prequel Jedi tried to suppress these emotions, at least openly. The HR Jedi, while there were some that still suppressed them, were more open about those emotions and able to overcome them because of the better general attitude about them.

 

Relating back to the selfish/selfless stuff, I guess the problem was the view that it is dangerous to feel selfish emotions. So instead of working to overcome that, the Jedi of the PT wanted those emotions to not even surface in the first place. This is the trap that Luke is falling into with his choice given to Grogu. Yes, attachment is not the way of the Jedi. But it doesn't mean you can't miss somebody. It doesn't mean that you have to forego a connection to them like the chainmail armor. I guess you could say that the problem stems from having a pessimistic view on the emotions that can lead to attachment, and trying to prevent it. It's similar to Luke in TLJ making the decision to stop Ben after seeing dark things in his mind when it hasn't happened yet, even if only for a split second.

 

In short, the difference between the HR and Prequel Jedi are the way they face the problems with emotions.

 

[Darth Lehnsherr]

Spoiler

The voice is the biggest issue for me still. While yes it sounds like Mark Hamill from the original trilogy I'm still not convinced how much emotion can be made out of the voice. Actually it's still the biggest hurdle for CGI Luke to see if there can be a display of emotions required and not just be stoic. 

 

If they can nail that then I'm all for having as much Luke in this time period as possible since it is an imporant period of him trying to rebuild the Jedi Order. 

 

It also opens up the doors for certain other original trilogy characters to appear without recasts (I honestly think a Han Solo cameo is inevitable in one of these shows).

 

[CloneWars]

28 minutes ago, Darth Lehnsherr said:

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The voice is the biggest issue for me still. While yes it sounds like Mark Hamill from the original trilogy I'm still not convinced how much emotion can be made out of the voice. Actually it's still the biggest hurdle for CGI Luke to see if there can be a display of emotions required and not just be stoic. 

 

If they can nail that then I'm all for having as much Luke in this time period as possible since it is an imporant period of him trying to rebuild the Jedi Order. 

 

It also opens up the doors for certain other original trilogy characters to appear without recasts (I honestly think a Han Solo cameo is inevitable in one of these shows).

 

Spoiler

Yup. The voice needs work. It just lacks emotion. Even Yoda had a range of emotion in ESB with his voice, so it's not like Jedi can't have inflection. The monotone nature of Luke's voice is rather off putting. Otherwise, the CGI is amazing. Imagine if you went back 20 years in time and said, hey look, this is what CGI looks like in the future. Anyway, LFL is getting there. But, yah, please fix the voice and add inflection and tone and emotion.

 

[Menor the Destroyer]

If we are doing fanservice, where is Hondo? Is he safe? Is he all right? 🤔

 

But seriously, if this show is gonna be a cameo fest then let's go all out. 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Menor Reborn

[4815162342]

All this talk about attachments reminds me of Jolee Bindo's quote from Knights of the Old Republic

 

Spoiler

 

"Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love itself will save you... not condemn you."

 

My understanding of things is that by the time of the Prequels the Jedi had taken the concept of controlling one's emotions, selflessness, putting the needs of the many over the needs of the few (Hi there Jedi Master Spock), etc. to such a rigid degree that they became out of touch with both the peoples of the galaxy and the Force itself (how else do none of them at any point in time sniff the Sidious in the room). By being unwilling to form attachments, they cost themselves the ability to, well, truly understand people and thus utterly failed to read the room.

 

As for Vader, what he did for Luke was selfless yes, but he would not have performed that selfless act if he did not have that attachment to Luke in the first place. He valued Luke's existence more than his own, which would not have been the case if Luke was just some guy to him.

 

 

[Menor the Destroyer]

2 hours ago, 4815162342 said:

All this talk about attachments reminds me of Jolee Bindo's quote from Knights of the Old Republic

 

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Spoiler

They didn't sense Sidious because he was using his own vast power to obfuscate their senses. But they still did have their suspicions about the Chancellor and sensed something dark surrounding him. 

 

Indeed Vader's attachment led to that selfless act and was necessary for him to return to the light, but a true Jedi should have been able to do that for anyone. That is why Jedi shouldn't be motivated by attachment, it leads them to prioritize themselves over serving the galaxy. I think it is quite possible to have romantic attachments while still staying on the light side, but I think it's okay for the Jedi Order itself to have very exacting standards here. 

 

I think the failings of the PT Jedi were more in being overly institutionalized and embroiled in the Republic political system while not being attuned to their individual members (Yoda telling Anakin not to mourn rather than trying to understand where he is coming from) rather than the teachings about attachment themselves. 

 

Unrelatedly:

Spoiler

The Filoniverse cameos are starting to wear a bit thin for me. I was ok in Mando S2 because they almost all served the larger plot of the show and made sense, but Cad Bane showing up felt a bit...stale. As fun of a character as he is, and as great as the scene itself was, it feels too self-referential for my taste. I would rather see Filoni/Favreau challenge themselves to write a new character that is every bit as intimidating and memorable as Cad Bane, especially after he was already brought back in The Bad Batch. I'm worried that other shows moving forward will feel more like this show, with a lot of nostalgia and callbacks, rather than have the creative energy and expansion that made TCW and Rebels so good.