Game of Thrones (TV ONLY) [Leaked Spoilers prohibited]

[The Panda]

1 hour ago, Charlie Jatinder said:

I am still wondering, how big a jump Arya made to go over White walkers, wights and covering some distance to land in hands of Night King.

 

The battle was dull overall, no tension at all, everyone important was safe.

 

That said I would have liked if Night King was killed in duel with multiple characters, Jon, Arya, Jaimie, Brienne perhaps.

 

Among other nitpicks, all the other white walkers did was standing behind Night King. They should have led charge.

 

But then they have made walkers very weak/vulnerable. All you gotta do is basically touch them with dragon glass or valeryin steel. They broke like glass with stone.

 

Wights were bigger threat than Walkers.

Did we even watch the same episode???

[Valonqar]

9 minutes ago, gadd said:

It was totally set up well, it had been subtly foreshadowed for years, it's just that fans got too caught up in the seemingly more obvious foreshadowing with Jon and the Night King which turned out to be a red herring. 

I'm not even talking about general set up, which I explained many times before that it sets up Arya proper. In several posts actually. I'm talking about poor execution that left everyone but one specific group of superfans (who were going to be happy no matter what as long as their character gets the big moment) very disappointed in the episode. The failure of the episode is that it didn't convince anyone but those superfans that this is how it should have gone down. if you tried to get away from your bias, you'd notice that most complaints aren't even that it was Arya who did it but how she did it. too easy, too plothole driven, etc. In short, you may be uncritical about her big moment because she is your #1 character, but other fans are not blinded by the bias and therefore they look at other aspects of the episode (including the execution) and don't feel it. 

 

Nobody would have a problem if her feat of sneaking was actually shown on the screen. it would be much more intense to watch her hide from WW than from rando wights in the library considering she took out 50 with 3 swings of her spear just minutes earlier. In fact, there was no reason to hide her presence from the audience cause a) Melisande and Arya explicitly said she was going to kill NK and Arya immediately left the residence and b) as said above, sneaking would be intense and flow organically with what happened earlier (the reveal she's the one) and later (fulfills her destiny).

 

This is the last I'll say because beyond that it's gonna be a circular argument. You are trying to convince everyone that it was an impressive episode and feat because you want your favorite character to get validation beyond superfans circles, but poor execution simply left less invested people unimpressed and that won't change. 

[Lordmandeep]

26 minutes ago, gadd said:

He was a human turned into a "weapon" by the Children of the Forest in order to counter the threat posed by humans. This went awry, big time. He became the Night King, and wanted to wipe out all of humanity, both the actual humans and the Children of the Forest, in retaliation for the treatment he endured by the COTF. Due to having memories of various events involving mankind, he set his sights on the Three-Eyed Ravens, because wiping their memory symbolised the 'death' of humanity. Since Bran became the new Three-Eyed Raven, he became the Night King's target. 
This stuff was established in Season 6 Episode 5 and even the last episode, and not in a subtle way either. It was pretty much spelled out for the audience.

 

 

and all that focus was to have them become a disposable villain in the end..

 

Like he stares at Bran for a moment, so the show is like hinting there is more.

 

Meaning why was the show Mystery boxing FOR 8 SEASONS for no reason if the end was to go back to the rather basic story line of the battle of the throne. 

 

BECAUSE it seems to me the White Walkers were just there to create added tension to the story because the battle for the throne would become rather stale after 8 seasons lol 

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Lordmandeep

[Valonqar]

15 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

 

 

Questions left unanswered

 

Who is the night king

What do they want

What do they want Bran

 

 

Questions left

Who kills cersci, arya or Jamie?

 

 

Yawns.. 

Questions answered:

 

NK was Snoked.

 

Arya kills Cersei but hopefully not using Jaimie's face cause he deserves better. 

[Jonan23]

2 hours ago, Valonqar said:

I think the problem is this. the show had the books as the source for about half of its run and then had to make do on their own. so whatever books set up, rubbed off on the show creating the feel that set up is for one thing, while the writing (whether due to lack of input from GRRM or simply free to write whatever) took it to another direction.

I thought I read somewhere that GRRM told the writers the ending of the series in case the show overtook the books. If that is the case then they aren't making it up but rather working from an outline of events. Maybe GRRM gave them bullet points.

and in a recent interview GRRM said

“I don't think Dan and Dave's ending is gonna be that different from my ending because of the conversations we did have,” he said.

“But they may be on certain secondary characters, there may be big differences,” he explained

[AndyK]

Is John's dragon dead?

[Valonqar]

1 minute ago, AndyK said:

Is John's dragon dead?

No. Both are alive in the trailer for the next episode. 0:21-0:22 timestamp:

 

 

[gadd]

2 hours ago, Valonqar said:

I'm not even talking about general set up, which I explained many times before that it sets up Arya proper. In several posts actually. I'm talking about poor execution that left everyone but one specific group of superfans (who were going to be happy no matter what as long as their character gets the big moment) very disappointed in the episode. The failure of the episode is that it didn't convince anyone but those superfans that this is how it should have gone down. if you tried to get away from your bias, you'd notice that most complaints aren't even that it was Arya who did it but how she did it. too easy, too plothole driven, etc. In short, you may be uncritical about her big moment because she is your #1 character, but other fans are not blinded by the bias and therefore they look at other aspects of the episode (including the execution) and don't feel it. 

 

Nobody would have a problem if her feat of sneaking was actually shown on the screen. it would be much more intense to watch her hide from WW than from rando wights in the library considering she took out 50 with 3 swings of her spear just minutes earlier. In fact, there was no reason to hide her presence from the audience cause a) Melisande and Arya explicitly said she was going to kill NK and Arya immediately left the residence and b) as said above, sneaking would be intense and flow organically with what happened earlier (the reveal she's the one) and later (fulfills her destiny).

 

This is the last I'll say because beyond that it's gonna be a circular argument. You are trying to convince everyone that it was an impressive episode and feat because you want your favorite character to get validation beyond superfans circles, but poor execution simply left less invested people unimpressed and that won't change. 

I'll reiterate what I said before: I wanted to see Jon take on The Night King as much as every other fan. 'Hardhome' is one of my top 5 favourite episodes and the hints that Jon would face off against the Night King got me incredibly hyped. It was a moment than would've been crowdpleasing, COULD have been narratively satisfying, but would've been.,,predictable.
Contrary to how it may be coming across, Arya is not my favourite character. Top 5? Probably. However, I haven't been as invested in her storyline since Season 5 because I didn't see where it was leading to. If you'd told me before the season began that she would take out the Night King, I wouldn't have been too impressed unless there was a valid reason for doing so...which there was. The training scenes and interactions with Jaquen and the Waif felt rather tedious because a) she was so far away from the other action that these moments came across as a distraction from the really interesting stuff and b) it got rather repetitive. The reason why I'm thrilled with this outcome is that it makes all of those scenes feel earned in retrospect. It's ironic that the character who felt the most distant from the Army of the Dead storyline was the one to end it all. The signs ended up pointing to a moment that was crowdpleasing, WAS narratively satisfying and was...unpredictable.
But your main issue is obviously the execution, which I disagree with for a few reasons. Firstly, it is entirely consistent with the way the show has handled Arya's assassinations over the years. I didn't hear these complaints when she murdered Walder Frey. We never witnessed her steal the servant's face, because that's Arya: she's mysterious. In fact, we've never seen her steal someone's face, as it's part of the intrigue regarding the Faceless men. Therefore, not showing her get into position or sneak around right before the attack is in keeping with the show's treatment of her. Secondly, you seem to think it was telegraphed too much. Well, given that fans seem to be upset that Jon didn't kill The Night King, there would have to be a certain level of set-up required to justify her assassination. We needed to see that moment with Melisandre because not only did it give her the kick to do the deed, but it explained Melisandre and Beric's roles in the story. However, they cleverly didn't emphasise the setting or her dagger too much, otherwise the parallels to the Night King's creation would've clicked and made the development way too obvious. The whole point of not showing Arya in those final 20 minutes was for the surprise, and the cross-cutting between Jon and The Night King wisely played upon fan's expectations. We see Jon running to the Godswood and are in suspense because we expect him to have a showdown with the main villain, but it looks unlikely given that the wight dragon is in his way. If we saw Arya sneaking around, it would not only negate the show's handling of Arya's big moments, but would've rendered a deliberately surprising moment totally predictable. 
 

Edited April 30, 2019 by gadd

[Lordmandeep]

I love how so many articles are saying the WW were a side show yet the show had 2 of its finales ending with White Walkers.

 

It seems to me that the White Walkers purpose was to just keep the tension in the show or else it would be become boring after 4 seasons. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Lordmandeep

[gadd]

This comparison between The Night King and Snoke is utterly ridiculous:
Snoke - showed up as a hologram for two scenes in TFA, showed up for two scenes in TLJ, allusions were made to his power but we only saw it when he got a hold of Rey and force-choked her. However, we never saw him display his true capabilities or understood his motivation before he met his end.
The Night King - teased for seasons before showing up in full capacity in 'Hardhome' where, for the first time, we witnessed his terrifying abilities and delivered one of the show's most iconic moments. In Season 6, we got to learn more about his origin and the connection he had to Bran. In Season 7, he takes out a dragon, which had proved a formidable threat since Season 3, with one javelin throw. He then uses the dragon to destroy the Wall that has lasted for centuries. In his penultimate episode, we learn more about his motivation and why Bran and previous Three-Eyed Ravens were his targets. Then, in his final appearance, his army decimates two of the fearsome armies in Westeros and Essos with ease. Daenerys pulls a move that has earned her many victories in the past ("Dracarys!"), only for that to prove useless and even amusing to the Night King (the smirk, which was awesome by the way). Jon thinks he can handle him in one-on-one combat, but the Night King wisely makes use of his ability to resurrect the dead so that Jon can't do so. He pretty much counters every power move the main characters have, except for the one character whose entire skill-set revolves around lurking in the shadows and being obscure. In fact, he almost got the better of her too, except she was clever and pulled off a sneaky move to deliver the ultimate blow.
Disposable? Give me a break.

[gadd]

10 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

I love how so many articles are saying the WW were a side show yet the show had 2 of its finales ending with White Walkers.

 

It seems to me that the White Walkers purpose was to just keep the tension in the show or else it would be become boring after 4 seasons. 

If it weren't for the White Walkers, many of the characters we've seen over the past 8 seasons would never have come together, mended their differences, and fought to save humanity. Now that these alliances have been formed, there is an opportunity overthrow Cersei and build a better future for Westeros. Their presence also indirectly instigated some key narrative developments e.g. Jon becoming King in the North and learning about his real parents.

[Valonqar]

42 minutes ago, gadd said:

I'll reiterate what I said before: I wanted to see Jon take on The Night King as much as every other fan.

But your main issue is obviously the execution, which I disagree with for a few reasons. Firstly, it is entirely consistent with the way the show has handled Arya's assassinations over the years. I didn't hear these complaints when she murdered Walder Frey.

 

Secondly, you seem to think it was telegraphed too much. Well, given that fans seem to be upset that Jon didn't kill The Night King, there would have to be a certain level of set-up required to justify her assassination. We needed to see that moment with Melisandre because not only did it give her the kick to do the deed, but it explained Melisandre and Beric's roles in the story.

 

The whole point of not showing Arya in those final 20 minutes was for the surprise, 
 

I didn't. Jon killed two WW so killing NK would be too much. Also, contrary to most fans belief, I never saw NK as his antagonist. to me, NK has always been Bran's antagonist so if he was to go down, it would be by Bran's proxy. Making Arya his proxy was the right decision due to her prior development. I do think that fans are mostly baffled why the hack was Jon resurrected and hyped by Mel&Beric if he wasn't the one. But we may discover in the next 3 episodes.

 

nobody would ever ask how she sneaked into Frey household cause Frey wasn't set up to be an almost invincible baddie. It's simple the matter of narrative. You don't wonder about side quests but you do about something that is a constant fixture and source of hype. It's just the way it is. it may not be fair but we suspend the disbelief about Frey that we cannot about NK. 

 

I don't mind telegraphing. I'm just questioning why they played the surprise as out of blue when they resolved the mystery by telling us she'd do it. There was never a mystery about Who after her convo with Mel, only about How. And that How ended up unsatisfying, not Who.

 

They filmed her jump from the tree. That's all they should have done, show us those 15 seconds of jumping from the tree. That would explain that she set up an ambush, rather than sneaked around. But they cut the scene short by making her suddenly appear behind NK without any sense how she got there. That's what bothers people. 15 seconds or less would have been sufficient and turn the reaction around. You still have surprise element but one that works. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Valonqar

[AndyK]

1 hour ago, Valonqar said:

No. Both are alive in the trailer for the next episode. 0:21-0:22 timestamp:

 

 

Thanks, can anyone decipher what was said at the end of the trailer?  ... what i heard was "por vow oot gluten stem".

[Lordmandeep]

47 minutes ago, gadd said:

If it weren't for the White Walkers, many of the characters we've seen over the past 8 seasons would never have come together, mended their differences, and fought to save humanity. Now that these alliances have been formed, there is an opportunity overthrow Cersei and build a better future for Westeros. Their presence also indirectly instigated some key narrative developments e.g. Jon becoming King in the North and learning about his real parents.

 

yawns... 

 

If this is how the show ends its going to divisive as hell. 

[Brainbug]

The first Book and Season 1 literally begin with establishing the central conflict of the Song of Ice and Fire: The living vs the dead. Not the game of thrones!

 

This episode shit on that and im so bitter about it.

[gadd]

1 hour ago, Valonqar said:

I didn't. Jon killed two WW so killing NK would be too much. Also, contrary to most fans belief, I never saw NK as his antagonist. to me, NK has always been Bran's antagonist so if he was to go down, it would be by Bran's proxy. Making Arya his proxy was the right decision due to her prior development. I do think that fans are mostly baffled why the hack was Jon resurrected and hyped by Mel&Beric if he wasn't the one. But we may discover in the next 3 episodes.

 

nobody would ever ask how she sneaked into Frey household cause Frey wasn't set up to be an almost invincible baddie. It's simple the matter of narrative. You don't wonder about side quests but you do about something that is a constant fixture and source of hype. It's just the way it is. it may not be fair but we suspend the disbelief about Frey that we cannot about NK. 

 

I don't mind telegraphing. I'm just questioning why they played the surprise as out of blue when they resolved the mystery by telling us she'd do it. There was never a mystery about Who after her convo with Mel, only about How. And that How ended up unsatisfying, not Who.

 

They filmed her jump from the tree. That's all they should have done, show us those 15 seconds of jumping from the tree. That would explain that she set up an ambush, rather than sneaked around. But they cut the scene short by making her suddenly appear behind NK without any sense how she got there. That's what bothers people. 15 seconds or less would have been sufficient and turn the reaction around. You still have surprise element but one that works. 

Okay, so how did Jaquen H'Ghar pull off all of those sneak attacks in Harrenhal and grant the wishes Arya had in Season 2? How did she infiltrate the brothel in the season 5 finale and steal someone's face in order to kill Meryn Trant? We didn't see how exactly Arya killed the Waif, but it was implied that she used her superior knowledge of fighting in the dark due to her blindness. The 'how' has never been important with Arya in those big moments, only when she's been trained. Also, if they'd had an establishing shot of her about to jump, it goes against the tone of the last 20 minutes, which was to convey the feeling of dread and hopelessness. It's something that has been done so much in movies and television: hint towards a solution to the problem but keep it in the background while other stuff is occurring, then pull the rug from under us. Again, if it was another character, I'd totally understand the complaints, but it's consistent with her character and her portayal on-screen. 
Also, showing her jump from a tree is at odds with a shot that wisely ensured that her appearance didn't come out of nowhere: the White Walker noticing the dust of wind, implying that she ran past them and jumped towards the Night King. The Night King even anticipated this move, just like he anticipated other characters' key moves. She had one more trick up her sleeve though, unlike the others, because of what she's learned over the years.

Edited April 30, 2019 by gadd

[Lordmandeep]

4 hours ago, Brainbug said:

The first Book and Season 1 literally begin with establishing the central conflict of the Song of Ice and Fire: The living vs the dead. Not the game of thrones!

 

This episode shit on that and im so bitter about it.

Lol people defending this said the show never really focused on the white walkers

 

 

Um....what....

 

[The Panda]

7 hours ago, Brainbug said:

The first Book and Season 1 literally begin with establishing the central conflict of the Song of Ice and Fire: The living vs the dead. Not the game of thrones!

 

This episode shit on that and im so bitter about it.

Except this episode was the living vs the dead?

 

If you read how GRRM was so fond of how Tolkien focused a lot on the aftermath of war of the ring, and was more interested in the politics than the grand stand against the evil dark lord, then it actually makes sense how early the WWs go down.

 

Im betting these last three episodes are “The Scouring of the Shire” part of the story.  It’s focusing on, “what happens after the big bad guy gets defeated”, instead of ending it on a victory note.

 

In a way the WWs are also a reverse of Frodo, with the NK looking to destroy the Ring (or Bran in this case) that gives his enemy power, or gives the living their memory.

 

Obviously this is still D+D’s rendition of the broad stroke of GRRM’s ending.  But they’ve pretty much confirmed the series will be using the ending GRRM had planned, even GRRM said so.

Edited May 1, 2019 by A Panda of Ice and Fire

[Valonqar]

18 hours ago, Brainbug said:

The first Book and Season 1 literally begin with establishing the central conflict of the Song of Ice and Fire: The living vs the dead. Not the game of thrones!

 

This episode shit on that and im so bitter about it.

I feel sorry for the Night Jobber prequel cause nobody's gonna watch that unless it's a sitcom. he went out like a bitch and people don't like that. 

[Brainbug]

I will say that though: The music is as great as always.