Game of Thrones (TV ONLY) [Leaked Spoilers prohibited]

[Spidey Freak]

12 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

My disappointment with NK isn't that he died, like, duh, that was going to happen. it's just that everyone exploding as the result was lame af. the intriguing thing about taking out villains like NK, who are more symbol than anything else, is that remnants still remain as a caution for the future. the whole point of why he rose again after 1000 or so years of slumber after the first defeat, is that these things are cyclic. humans will be at odds with each other, but when shit hits the fan, NK rises to unite them again otherwise they'd annihilate themselves.

Or maybe the point of the story is to show that humanity is its own worst enemy and not some made up boogeyman like the NK? It would be poignant if more lives were lost due to Cersei's ruthlessness in the last 3 episodes than during The Long Night.

 

Again, this is a high fantasy deconstruction, not traditional high fantasy. Don't be shocked to see if some "Chosen Ones" never get their "chance to shine", that's kind of the point.

[Warhorse]

1 hour ago, Spidey Freak said:

Or maybe the point of the story is to show that humanity is its own worst enemy and not some made up boogeyman like the NK? It would be poignant if more lives were lost due to Cersei's ruthlessness in the last 3 episodes than during The Long Night.

 

Again, this is a high fantasy deconstruction, not traditional high fantasy. Don't be shocked to see if some "Chosen Ones" never get their "chance to shine", that's kind of the point.

Actually, I will be pissed. and where was that the point? GRRM says he was inspired by LOTR, so we as fans are expecting more or less, a similar outcome. Just an R-Rated version of it. If the chosen ones don't do something heroic or the story leads to their victory, expect GOT to go down in history as one of the worst shows/books of all time. Started out great, but then became a dud, just like Lost.

[Valonqar]

1 hour ago, Spidey Freak said:

Or maybe the point of the story is to show that humanity is its own worst enemy and not some made up boogeyman like the NK? It would be poignant if more lives were lost due to Cersei's ruthlessness in the last 3 episodes than during The Long Night.

 

Again, this is a high fantasy deconstruction, not traditional high fantasy. Don't be shocked to see if some "Chosen Ones" never get their "chance to shine", that's kind of the point.

but NK does point out that humanity is its worst enemy cause they unite and try to save their species only if some non-human outsider threatens them. otherwise they gladly go on destroying each other (and threatening their own existence without realizing). Look at the great houses. they have no qualm annihilating one another. but anyway, we see it from different POV and that's OK.

[Ozymandias]

hahahaha

 

 

[Spidey Freak]

16 hours ago, Warhorse said:

Actually, I will be pissed. and where was that the point? GRRM says he was inspired by LOTR

Quote

"The battle between good and evil is a legitimate theme for a Fantasy (or for any work of fiction, for that matter), but in real life that battle is fought chiefly in the individual human heart. Too many contemporary Fantasies take the easy way out by externalizing the struggle, so the heroic protagonists need only smite the evil minions of the dark power to win the day. And you can tell the evil minions, because they're inevitably ugly and they all wear black." - GRRM 

And he's respectfully critiqued Tolkien's more simplistic good vs. evil themes many times over. This is a deconstruction, a totally different beast. It's like complaining how we did not get an epic battle sequence at the end of Watchmen, hence it was anticlimactic as it didn't follow superhero story norms.

[misafeco]

On 5/4/2019 at 2:11 PM, Valonqar said:

This x 10000! Why did several other characters have Valerian steel? To take out WW! And yet, they got stuck fighting wights that could be taken out with a mere dragon glass and fire! Fuck this shit! 

 

Longclaw = useless 

Oathkeeper = useless

Widow's Wail = useless

Heartsbane = useless

 

Dumb. 

 

Valerian:

 

Valyrian:

[Warhorse]

6 hours ago, Spidey Freak said:

And he's respectfully critiqued Tolkien's more simplistic good vs. evil themes many times over. This is a deconstruction, a totally different beast. It's like complaining how we did not get an epic battle sequence at the end of Watchmen, hence it was anticlimactic as it didn't follow superhero story norms.

If that is what he got from LOTR, then all of my book club friends are right about GRRM, he is a fool who doesn't think before he speaks. The stories were originally written because Tolkein wanted some kind of fantasy for England. But even then, his stories aren't about good vs evil. It's about how evil comes about because it seduces the good people with temptations and it's up to them to choose the right path. The problems didn't stop once the ring was destroyed. Anyone who reads LOTR knows this to be true when the hobbits ride back home and the Scouring of the Shire takes place. 

 

Anyways, I always took the GOT stories that there was a war going on between good Gods and bad Gods (God of death, Lord of Light) and they have their key players, but the God of death is winning because it's taking on the traditional divide and conquer technique. Everyone is battling over a stupid chair, killing eachother, and ignoring the fact they have an invasion coming from the north made up of ice and wights, and an invasion coming from the south made up of fire. Basically, I am taking the phrase "Game of Thrones" as a red herring. 

[4815162342]

I never have considered the Lord of Light a "good" God. A God that requires the sacrifice of innocent people in order to award certain power is at best "amoral".

 

Spoiler

This assumes that there are actually Gods at all and not just varying forms of naturalistic magic and spirit

 

[Spidey Freak]

28 minutes ago, 4815162342 said:

I never have considered the Lord of Light a "good" God. A God that requires the sacrifice of innocent people in order to award certain power is at best "amoral".

 

  Reveal hidden contents

This assumes that there are actually Gods at all and not just varying forms of naturalistic magic and spirit

 

Yeah, R'hollor may not actually exist and is just a source of faith for the magically inclined. The Night King isn't technically a "God" as well. More of a global warming allegory created due to the evils of men.

23 hours ago, Valonqar said:

but NK does point out that humanity is its worst enemy cause they unite and try to save their species only if some non-human outsider threatens them. otherwise they gladly go on destroying each other (and threatening their own existence without realizing). Look at the great houses. they have no qualm annihilating one another. but anyway, we see it from different POV and that's OK.

But then doesn't ending the NK and everything turning happy/cheery go against that theme? It's fitting that the threat left at the end is a human one (whether it is Cersei or Dany's own potential for nihilism). The questions posed are, "Does evil end if Satan is killed?" and "Can humanity be trusted to learn from its previous mistakes?".

[4815162342]

Since the White Walkers are done for, there's no way we'll get the seventh book title (A Dream of Spring) as an episode title.

 

 

But I am holding out hope that the series finale will use the original seventh book title for the episode title: A Time for Wolves.

Edited May 5, 2019 by 4815162342

[The Panda]

I’m sorry, but if you were expecting Game of Thrones to be an “R-Rated LOTR” I don’t know how to help you with your disappointment.  While GRRM obviously took some inspiration front Tolkien, ASOIAF is its own thing (and Thrones the show is its own thing from that).

 

Thrones has never even pretended to be a story about good vs evil.  So it’s a pretty dumb critique to say the entire story is terrible, worst ever, because it turns out the conclusion won’t be heroes triumphing over a big bad villain?

Edited May 5, 2019 by A Panda of Ice and Fire

[HeadShot]

Yikes. I read the spoilers for next episode and this will be an even bigger shit-show than episode 3. 

Holy fuck has this show gone down the drain.

 

Its over

 

[misafeco]

34 minutes ago, HeadShot said:

Yikes. I read the spoilers for next episode and this will be an even bigger shit-show than episode 3. 

Holy fuck has this show gone down the drain.

 

Its over

 

What's the point of reading spoilers literally 6 hours before the episode airs?

[DAR]

3 hours ago, HeadShot said:

Yikes. I read the spoilers for next episode and this will be an even bigger shit-show than episode 3. 

Holy fuck has this show gone down the drain.

 

Its over

 

Yes but it has three more episodes 

[Lordmandeep]

On 5/4/2019 at 8:22 AM, Brainbug said:

My favourite medieval history channel on YT explains the tactics in the 3rd episode and why the show should really have studied medieval warfare:

 

 

Disclaimer: This is not a stupid channel like those Last Jedi-hating videos.

 

 

If you are facing overwhelming odds, the key is to play defense not offense...

 

That is why I find this battle so stupid.... GOT has been careful to use clever tatics and tricks and this seemed like the goal was to just make cool shots that no one could see. 

[4815162342]

3 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

 

 

If you are facing overwhelming odds, the key is to play defense not offense...

 

That is why I find this battle so stupid.... GOT has been careful to use clever tatics and tricks and this seemed like the goal was to just make cool shots that no one could see. 

 

The problem is that the Heroes could not play defense indefinitely in terms of static defenses. In Episode 1 it was made pretty clear that they had limited food for the "largest army in the world", so they could not just hole up in Winterfell and force the NK to waste countless wights in siege attacks. Eventually they would have to give battle.

 

 

What they could have done is pull the Russia 1812 Defense. Harass the dumber and less reactive wight hordes with hit-and-run sweeps to take out a few at a time, while refusing to give battle with your actual army while denying the NK the only resource he needs: people, by evacuating populations south and south.

 

The problem this strategy has is that eventually the Heroes would run out of room to retreat to unless they literally abandoned the North and funnelled everyone through the Neck into the Riverlands (with ship evacuations via White Harbor, etc), because unlike Napoleon, the NK doesn't need logistics.

[Ozymandias]

Im gonna have have all the dothraki get killed in seconds by going on a suicide charge and have all the fireball hurling catapults in front of the goddamn army.

 

I R GEE-OH-TEE WRITER

 

Put the catapults either behind the unsullied or preferably behind the fucking wall.  Wait for the dead to attack like they did.  Have the dothraki charge in from the sides.  Reign catapult-fireballs and dragon fire down on the dead in the middle.  They probably still would've gotten their asses kicked in the end but I'd rather them fail with smart/common sense battle plans instead of really stupid ones, especially since the whole point of the battle seemed to be to ride out the clock waiting for the opportune moment to kill the NK.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Ozymandias

[4815162342]

Just now, Ozymandias said:

Im gonna have have all the dothraki get killed in seconds by going on a suicide charge and have all the fireball hurling catapults in front of the goddamn army.

 

I R GEE-OH-TEE WRITER

 

Put the catapults either behind the unsullied or preferably behind the fucking wall.  Wait for the dead to attack like they did.  Have the dothraki charge in from the sides.  Reign catapult-fireballs and dragon fire down on the dead in the middle.  They probably still would've gotten their asses kicked in the end but I'd rather them fail with smart/common sense battle plans instead of really stupid ones, especially since the whole point of the battle seemed to be to run out the clock waiting for the opportune moment to kill the NK.

 

Oh the sheer amount of basic tactical errors was astounding.

 

 

It seems that their "plan" assumed the NK would go for the Godswood to take out Bran ASAP, rather than wait for his army to do the dirty work

[The Panda]

27 minutes ago, 4815162342 said:

 

The problem is that the Heroes could not play defense indefinitely in terms of static defenses. In Episode 1 it was made pretty clear that they had limited food for the "largest army in the world", so they could not just hole up in Winterfell and force the NK to waste countless wights in siege attacks. Eventually they would have to give battle.

 

 

What they could have done is pull the Russia 1812 Defense. Harass the dumber and less reactive wight hordes with hit-and-run sweeps to take out a few at a time, while refusing to give battle with your actual army while denying the NK the only resource he needs: people, by evacuating populations south and south.

 

The problem this strategy has is that eventually the Heroes would run out of room to retreat to unless they literally abandoned the North and funnelled everyone through the Neck into the Riverlands (with ship evacuations via White Harbor, etc), because unlike Napoleon, the NK doesn't need logistics.

This still ignores the fact that the NK has a dragon, so normal defensive siege tactics are kind of mute at that point.

[4815162342]

1 minute ago, A Panda of Ice and Fire said:

This still ignores the fact that the NK has a dragon, so normal defensive siege tactics are kind of mute at that point.

 

Well that requires a separate discussion about the failure of Team Starg to properly account for air superiority and proper application of limited CAS resources