The Marvels | November 10, 2023 | Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter

[MovieMan89]

Only that first teaser poster doesn’t “sell the image” of Captain Marvel. Which is a VERY common teaser poster tactic (eg the TDK one highlighted here). So I don’t see how this is a real argument either… 

Edited November 4, 2023 by MovieMan89

[M37]

14 minutes ago, reddevil19 said:

So the point is that it's not the fuckin name of the product, it's the promo surrounding the product itself. I.e. sell the image of Batman and sell the image of Captain Marvel. 

Its also the story

 

Captain Marvel went from the savior of the Avengers - who Fury pages in his last breath after the snap - has an origin story and become essentially a god, to ... basically a babysitter/mentor to two side characters that the majority of the MCU audience doesn't know (or at least has very little invested in their story).

 

28 minutes ago, Sckathian said:

I honestly don’t see The Marvels as a sequel but as a spin off and if they hadn’t internally called this CM2 I think most people who follow these things would have seen it as a spin off.

Yeah this, as its much more a continuation to the the Disney Plus branch (DPMCU ?) of stories than a true sequel to an MCU/Avenger character. Its a DPMCU level event on the big screen, and audiences are treating it with the equivalent level of hype. They'll catch it on D+ whenever it winds up there

Edited November 4, 2023 by M37

[Porthos]

1 hour ago, M37 said:

We may look back and realize that AMWQ (and Majors's scandal?) was the final straw for the power of the MCU at the box office

 

For everything else surrounding this, I think the bolded does not get nearly enough discussion/blame/scrutiny.  

 

Or rather the one-two punch of AM3 not living up to expectations followed almost immediately by Jonathan Majors becoming Persona Non Grata, if not an active hinderance, in Marvel fandom.

 

If AM3 had been better received, the Majors scandal (which is still limping along) would have quite likely played out differently.

If the Majors scandal never came to light, quite likely folks would still be putting in much more effort into ways to salvage the Kang storyline without resorting to recasts or just nuking the story.

 

The one-two punch just took a massive amount of wind out of the sails of MCU discussion and, for the lack of a better phrase, just sucked a lot of emotional energy out of fandom.  And when emotional energy gets leeched out of a fandom, the GA notices.  If they're stopped on the street, they might not be able to say specifically why they don't care as much.  They might give contradictory, what seem to be illogical answers.  But the overall point would be true: The hype is gone. For now, at least.

 

Way back in January, I made what turned out to be a rather infamous post about why AM3 was doing so well in very early pre-sales (and it was doing very well).  I made the observation that AM3 looked to be film which was gonna get the dominoes falling that led to the next big series of events.  After not exactly getting what a vocal portion of the fanbase wanted in DS2, AM3 was shaping up to be the film which would chart the course of the next few years.  

 

Instead... Well, it might be very well be the pivot point, but not in the way I thought at the time.

 

After that?  After that we had the strikes.  After that we had a rolling list of projects in film and TV getting retooled, delayed, or outright stuck in limbo.  One of the few unalloyed bright spots since then, GOTG3, has its leading light off to the competition (where he is facing his own Herculean endeavor to right a ship).  Even Loki might be getting tarred slightly with declining interest of the MCU at large*.

* Not nearly enough data in quite yet to draw large conclusions but at least it seems to be going over fairly well with the folks who are watching it.

 

Putting it charitably, ever since oh March or so, the MCU has been in transition.  Less charitably, it's been in a state of chaos.  And while the seeds of the chaos can be traced back years, the two biggest punches to the gut IMO were AM3 and much more seriously, Jonathan Majors.

 

NB:

 

One thing that Marvel has had going for it the last 12 to 15 years or so was a self-sustaining internet fandom that was just interested in keeping MCU discussion alive.  It had a viral component that left other franchises in envy.  I maintain that scandals like the Jonathan Majors one can be deadly to the health of Fandom Discourse.  At the very least: Discussions Stop Being Fun.

 

And when Discussions Stop Being Fun...

 

...

 

Well, it's not as if *I* would have first hand experience with that sort of dynamic.  Cough.

[Hypercortical]

I really don't know how you can see it as more of a sequel to the D+ stuff. If we consider WandaVision, this movie has nothing to do with the setting, or plot, or conflict of WandaVision. No witches, no Hex, just a one character. Same for Ms. Marvel, No highschool, no djinn. We do get the bangles, and of course Kamala. Meanwhile Along with Carol from Captain Marvel, we have the setting, Space. We have plot/conflict elements in the Kree-Skrull war. It's also been made clear that the core conflict of the film is about Carol, not Monica or Kamala. Dar-Benn says Carol is 'The Annihilator', and Carol has taken everything from her, She's going after every place Carol calls home. Which is clearly a result of Carol's war against the Kree, which picks up directly from where the plot of Captain Marvel left off. This whole movie is happening first and foremost because of Carol's past actions. Her first film is driving the plot. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Hypercortical

[emoviefan]

5 minutes ago, Porthos said:

 

For everything else surrounding this, I think the bolded does not get nearly enough discussion/blame/scrutiny.  

 

Or rather the one-two punch of AM3 not living up to expectations followed almost immediately by Jonathan Majors becoming Persona Non Grata, if not an active hinderance, in Marvel fandom.

 

If AM3 had been better received, the Majors scandal (which is still limping along) would have quite likely played out differently.

If the Majors scandal never came to light, quite likely folks would still be putting in much more effort into ways to salvage the Kang storyline without resorting to recasts or just nuking the story.

 

The one-two punch just took a massive amount of wind out of the sails of MCU discussion and, for the lack of a better phrase, just sucked a lot of emotional energy out of fandom.  And when emotional energy gets leeched out of a fandom, the GA notices.  If they're stopped on the street, they might not be able to say specifically why they don't care as much.  They might give contradictory, what seem to be illogical answers.  But the overall point would be true: The hype is gone. For now, at least.

 

Way back in January, I made what turned out to be a rather infamous post about why AM3 was doing so well in very early pre-sales (and it was doing very well).  I made the observation that AM3 looked to be film which was gonna get the dominoes falling that led to the next big series of events.  After not exactly getting what a vocal portion of the fanbase wanted in DS2, AM3 was shaping up to be the film which would chart the course of the next few years.  

 

Instead... Well, it might be very well be the pivot point, but not in the way I thought at the time.

 

After that?  After that we had the strikes.  After that we had a rolling list of projects in film and TV getting retooled, delayed, or outright stuck in limbo.  One of the few unalloyed bright spots since then, GOTG3, has its leading light off to the competition (where he is facing his own Herculean endeavor to right a ship).  Even Loki might be getting tarred slightly with declining interest of the MCU at large*.

* Not nearly enough data in quite yet to draw large conclusions but at least it seems to be going over fairly well with the folks who are watching it.

 

Putting it charitably, ever since oh March or so, the MCU has been in transition.  Less charitably, it's been in a state of chaos.  And while the seeds of the chaos can be traced back years, the two biggest punches to the gut IMO were AM3 and much more seriously, Jonathan Majors.

 

NB:

 

One thing that Marvel has had going for it the last 12 to 15 years or so was a self-sustaining internet fandom that was just interested in keeping MCU discussion alive.  It had a viral component that left other franchises in envy.  I maintain that scandals like the Jonathan Majors one can be deadly to the health of Fandom Discourse.  At the very least: Discussions Stop Being Fun.

 

And when Discussions Stop Being Fun...

 

...

 

Well, it's not as if *I* would have first hand experience with that sort of dynamic.  Cough.

And what is frustrating is the Jonathan Majors issue. It's sounds like enough people knew he had this bad history with his treatment of women and once again it was ignore and look the other way and hope it does not blow up in our face. That's hollywood I guess. 

[John Marston]

Of course people know this is a CM sequel. Do you think people are stupid? Also do you think a large amount of Marvels audience don’t use social media? There is a reason why it seemed everyone and their mother knew Tobey and Andrew were going to be in NWH which fueled general audience anticipation

 

 

the problem is no one cares. Hell if the movie opens as low as we are thinking it means even many Marvel fanboys don’t care either 

 

 

[DInky]

5 minutes ago, emoviefan said:

And what is frustrating is the Jonathan Majors issue. It's sounds like enough people knew he had this bad history with his treatment of women and once again it was ignore and look the other way and hope it does not blow up in our face. That's hollywood I guess. 

 

They apparently also didn't do a background check on Tenoch Huerta (Namor) who was accused of rape in June.

[emoviefan]

19 minutes ago, DInky said:

 

They apparently also didn't do a background check on Tenoch Huerta (Namor) who was accused of rape in June.

Him too. Have not heard as much about him though. Not sure about the status of  that case. 

[ringedmortality]

31 minutes ago, John Marston said:

Of course people know this is a CM sequel. Do you think people are stupid? Also do you think a large amount of Marvels audience don’t use social media? There is a reason why it seemed everyone and their mother knew Tobey and Andrew were going to be in NWH which fueled general audience anticipation

 

 

the problem is no one cares. Hell if the movie opens as low as we are thinking it means even many Marvel fanboys don’t care either 

 

 

 

Yeah people need to admit that audiences do not give a shit about a Captain Marvel sequel.

[Killimano3]

So how bad is the opening looking for this

[DlAMONDZ]

Lol as if being marketed as a direct sequel would change anything

 

The first one had all kinds of circumstances working in it's favor. Lightning in a bottle type shit

[DInky]

17 minutes ago, emoviefan said:

Him too. Have not heard as much about him though. Not sure about the status of  that case. 

 

I think it never went beyond an accusation but the fact that the woman in question was already an acid attack survivor makes the prospect of the accusation being true even more horrible.

[Sckathian]

I’ve probably made too much about the title. The issue is the concept that led to that title. It’s a team up with an A list character with a C list and Z list. That’s where the mistake began. This probably all feds back to Disney plus but Lao Disney I think have lost focus of what made MCU successful in the first place.

[PlatnumRoyce]

2 hours ago, WittyUsername said:

I don’t know how anyone could look at the marketing and not understand that Carol Danvers is a major character here. That was my point. A title doesn’t make that much of a difference. 

 

I think a key word there is "look." While the Marvels name point is overstated but it hits on a core opportunity cost and a real early marketing mistake (yeah, it's completely impossible to walk by most pieces of Marvels marketing during the last month or two and not grasp this is a movie staring Brie Larson). However, I think it's really easy to walk by that initial Marvels poster and not have it implicitly scan as "another Captain Marvel movie" because she's sort of in the background and the most striking image is the horizon. If you actively look at it, you'll obviously see Larson but we're talking about a minimally engaged audience who can't be assumed to seek out knowledge about films in production. 

I don't think that's an accident, instead it's downstream of strategic marketing decisions as I think it's pretty obvious that Disney identified the lack of interest/awareness in Rambeau/KK as a "key challenge" which initial marketing spent time and effort attempting to remedy (it also seems as if they see/saw Imran as a strength to highlight). It really seems like that attempt just completely failed and the focus they spend on that had real opportunity costs of seeking out another major pitch for the film that could have resonated. 

 

[MovieMan89]

5 minutes ago, Sckathian said:

I’ve probably made too much about the title. The issue is the concept that led to that title. It’s a team up with an A list character with a C list and Z list. That’s where the mistake began. This probably all feds back to Disney plus but Lao Disney I think have lost focus of what made MCU successful in the first place.

She was never an “A list” character on her own merits though. That’s where the actual mistake began (Disney thinking she was after many other factors boosted CM at the box office). 

Edited November 4, 2023 by MovieMan89

[WittyUsername]

2 hours ago, Sckathian said:

How could anyone not look at those posters and not see it’s a team up movie?

 

The Strange one is super good actually and the comparison I was grasping for. It’s clearly a ‘team up’ (although obviously the twist is it’s not) but it’s two very very popular characters. 
 

Meanwhile it’s someone called Monica no one knows or remembers and Kamala people also don’t know. Played by two tv actors.

 

I honestly don’t see The Marvels as a sequel but as a spin off and if they hadn’t internally called this CM2 I think most people who follow these things would have seen it as a spin off.

I don’t see why it being a “spin-off” would be a factor in pushing people away. Did that push people away from The Avengers? 

[Zakiyyah6]

1 minute ago, WittyUsername said:

I don’t see why it being a “spin-off” would be a factor in pushing people away. Did that push people away from The Avengers? 

You're comparing The Avengers to The Marvels??? Lol

[WittyUsername]

Just now, Zakiyyah6 said:

You're comparing The Avengers to The Marvels??? Lol

No? I’m saying that I seriously doubt the reason for this movie’s poor tracking is because people don’t see it as a sequel to CM. 

[Hypercortical]

6 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

No? I’m saying that I seriously doubt the reason for this movie’s poor tracking is because people don’t see it as a sequel to CM. 

yes you did

[Zakiyyah6]

1 minute ago, WittyUsername said:

No? I’m saying that I seriously doubt the reason for this movie’s poor tracking is because people don’t see it as a sequel to CM. 

You should have just said that then because the two projects aren't comparable in any way. Characters that have had their own individual movies teaming up in one movie to stop the invasion of earth in a first of its type film is not remotely the same as a character from a film whose box office was boosted by its proximity to another movie teaming up with characters from two Disney Plus streaming series, one of which is the least seen of it's sort, to save the world from a vague threat that the trailers aren't explaining very well. Totally not the same thing.