The Marvels | November 10, 2023 | Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter

[Valonqar]

2 minutes ago, SpiderByte said:

I don't know why you keep saying Ms Marvel is unpopular in the comics, No Normal has been at the top of digital lists for years.

 

I didn't? I said I knew next to nothing about the comics but that I read about her comic books being cancelled and renewed several times. That didn't strike me as an A list comicbook hero thing but perhaps comic books work differently. That said, her comic book may have sit at the top for years, she didn't translate on the screen at all cause her show flopped and early sales for the movie where she's a co-lead are troubling. Unlike F list GOTG that translated on the screen brilliantly. Also, mind you, TM ran away from Barbenheimer only to run into Five Nights at The Eras. Perhaps if there's no real interest in a movie, it doesn't matter when you release it. Something will always upstage it. 

 

I'll say this. Whoever picked TET week for TM ticket sales should be on the chopping block. They should have been aware of TET buzz and potential audience crossover and thus postponed TM sales for after the main event. 

[toutvabien]

Interesting graphic from the THR Daredevil/Marvel TV article on the performance of the shows, including Ms. Marvel. Feels relevant in the thread.

[Valonqar]

15 minutes ago, Kon said:

 

Captain Marvel comic has been cancelled and renewed multiple times too. In general, it is pretty difficult to mantain a solo in comics.

 

Still, comics are a pretty niche market, so the level of popularity in these wouldn't necessarily reflect mainstream popularity. For example: Iron Man wasn't an A-List character in comics (currently, he isn't an A-List regarding comic sales).

 

Thank you. Exactly my point. Some characters are more cinematic and therefore translate on the screen better even if their comics don't sell. While other work on paper but not on the screen.

 

Iron Man became an A List like Superman/Batman/Spiderman because of pitch perfect casting of RDJ. That was a stroke of genius that kickstarted MCU and MCU lost a lot without him cause they don't have a single actor or actress to fill those shoes. Moreover, Steve (what heroes should be) and Tony (what heroes really are) dynamic drove the whole universe sharing. There's no dynamic like that now because there's no building of the Avengers. They'll only add more and more members and that's about it.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Valonqar

[SpiderByte]

6 minutes ago, toutvabien said:

Interesting graphic from the THR Daredevil/Marvel TV article on the performance of the shows, including Ms. Marvel. Feels relevant in the thread.

Something that this leaves out of context: all of these are head and shoulders above every other Disney+ original outside of Star Wars. Ms Marvel doing less watch minutes (a basically worthless metric imo but that's not what this conversation is about) than Loki doesn't make it a failure for the service. There's a reason Willow and Big Shot got removed.

[Valonqar]

Willow and Big Shot got removed cause they aren't part of a larger franchise. Eventually, D+ will have to remove franchise shows with low viewership. 

[Willowra]

1 hour ago, JustLurking said:

If day 1 was bad, day 2 was straight up horrendous. Holy shit.

End of the character in MCU. If Brie Larson already has contract with Marvel studios for Avengers & if they want to remove her from MCU then she will demand a heavy compensation. She'll bleed them even more lol.

[toutvabien]

38 minutes ago, SpiderByte said:

Something that this leaves out of context: all of these are head and shoulders above every other Disney+ original outside of Star Wars. Ms Marvel doing less watch minutes (a basically worthless metric imo but that's not what this conversation is about) than Loki doesn't make it a failure for the service. There's a reason Willow and Big Shot got removed.

This is acknowledged in the article. At the same time, Marvel and Star Wars are supposed to be the big draws on the platform. Hence why they are all amongst the most expensive seasons of TV ever.

 

Also worth noting that Disney+ is on a downwards trajectory in general and there are obvious reasons why people would be streaming more in the vast majority of 2021 compared to late that year, last year and this year.

[Willowra]

Ms. Marvel, Nick Fury & Captain Marvel are balancing the MCU.

Ms. Marvel budget 200m approx

Secret Invasion budget 212m

The Marvels budget 270-300m

Total budget 700m

So whatever they gain from MoM, L&T & GOTG3 they lost from Ms. Marvel, SI & The Marvels- all flops.

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Willowra

[Madhuvan]

1 hour ago, SpiderByte said:

Something that this leaves out of context: all of these are head and shoulders above every other Disney+ original outside of Star Wars. Ms Marvel doing less watch minutes (a basically worthless metric imo but that's not what this conversation is about) than Loki doesn't make it a failure for the service. There's a reason Willow and Big Shot got removed.

Ms Marvel did less than What if

 

That's not good in anyway whatsoever

[Zakiyyah6]

The Marvels budget was 212M after the tax rebate. The film is looking like it will probably be a box office disappointment but let us be as accurate as we can be with the information we have to work with. Until you can find a more reliable source that says that the budget is 270M to 300M after the tax rebate you shouldn't be claiming that.

[Willowra]

4 minutes ago, Zakiyyah6 said:

The Marvels budget was 212M after the tax rebate. The film is looking like it will probably be a box office disappointment but let us be as accurate as we can be with the information we have to work with. Until you can find a more reliable source that says that the budget is 270M to 300M after the tax rebate you shouldn't be claiming that.

I am talking about total cost. It's 220m budget is net budget & then when we include video cost, tax, participations & residuals it's total cost will go above 300m lol. 

[SpiderByte]

20 minutes ago, Madhuvan said:

Ms Marvel did less than What if

 

That's not good in anyway whatsoever

And Ms Marvel also did better than anything that isn't Marvel or Star Wars on the rest of the service.

[PlatnumRoyce]

 

17 minutes ago, Zakiyyah6 said:

The Marvels budget was 212M after the tax rebate. The film is looking like it will probably be a box office disappointment but let us be as accurate as we can be with the information we have to work with. Until you can find a more reliable source that says that the budget is 270M to 300M after the tax rebate you shouldn't be claiming that.

By the same logic, we shouldn't assert a 212M budget because it's just explicitly not the final budget. It's a number gleaned due to tax reporting periods. It includes the main production but it's unclear what percentage of post & reshoots this covers (we know reporting timeline for tax credits but not timeline of The Marvels' work).

I don't know how to get from 212M to estimated final budget (with the additional caveats of "Uk tax credit budget != production budget") but it's clearly higher. 

[SpiderByte]

38 minutes ago, Willowra said:

Ms. Marvel, Nick Fury & Captain Marvel are balancing the MCU.

Ms. Marvel budget 200m approx

Secret Invasion budget 212m

The Marvels budget 270-300m

Total budget 700m

So whatever they gain from MoM, L&T & GOTG3 they lost from Ms. Marvel, SI & The Marvels- all flops.

 

Yeah that's not how that math works. The TV shows are not bankrupting the studio.

[PlatnumRoyce]

7 hours ago, AnotherDayAnotherDollar said:

I think if Marvels came out when Thor 4 came out and Thor 4 came out today Marvels would be fine but Thor 4 would bomb. We'll never know though. I may be wrong but I feel a Thor 5 will be a huge drop from Thor 4 because of how bad that one was. 

It would probably significantly help The Marvels (also places it within a "normal" sequel timeline) but I think you're downplaying existing goodwill from Thor: Ragnarok. Reviews would hurt but there was clearly an intrinsic hook to the film audiences resonated with.

[Willowra]

4 minutes ago, SpiderByte said:

Yeah that's not how that math works. The TV shows are not bankrupting the studio.

Ok

[SpiderByte]

I just don't see how people are claiming that this is how Marvel performs from now on forever and not likely just an outlier.

[Hatebox]

29 minutes ago, Madhuvan said:

Ms Marvel did less than What if

 

That's not good in anyway whatsoever

TIL that What If exists. 
 

Anyway, as easy as it’d be to denounce Disney’s strategy with MCU and SW shows I think they’re just canaries in the coalmines of the impending streaming reality-check. All these services have doubled-down on a business model that looks increasingly brittle.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Hatebox

[SpiderByte]

11 minutes ago, Hatebox said:

TIL that What If exists. 
 

Anyway, as easy as it’d be to denounce Disney’s strategy with MCU and SW shows I think they’re just canaries in the coalmines of the impending streaming reality-check. All these services have doubled-down on a business model that looks increasingly brittle.

 

 

It's not the Disney+'s and that Netflixs that have to worry about the inevitable streaming shrink, it's the smaller ones like Peacock and Apple.

Edited October 12, 2023 by SpiderByte

[M37]

1 hour ago, toutvabien said:

Interesting graphic from the THR Daredevil/Marvel TV article on the performance of the shows, including Ms. Marvel. Feels relevant in the thread.

Honestly, IMO the more concerning number there is Secret Invasion. The shows that have higher profile characters and/or skew more serious/adult put up the better numbers in general, while the more comedic/light-hearted and younger skewing program draw fewer.  Secret Invasion should have been able to pull around Hawkeye/Moon Knight numbers, and its well below

 

A female skewing teen comedy show not pulling in huge viewers isn't exactly a red flag to me; my daughters didn't really care, so we skipped it, and I imagine a lot of MCU fans without kids did as well