The Flash | June 16 2023 | Ezra Miller, Michael Keaton | We’re stoping the count at a Nice 69% RT (it’s 72% For Real) | Please Remember that Your Enjoyment Of The Film is Not Based On Others Opinions And To Be Nice To Each Other

[dudalb]

3 minutes ago, Phoenix22 said:

 

Shazam (2019) and The Suicide Squad (2021) both have 90% on RT.

I love the 2021 SS but it was bomb at the box office,no other word for it.

Shazam managed tomake a decent profit for the investment; SS did not.

[dudalb]

2 minutes ago, Dragoncaine said:

90% isn't "pretty solid" though.

I have decided that "solid" is a pretty meanngless word when it comes to film criticism.In ote it is most ofter used a film that people thought would get a stellar reception does not.

[Eric Lasagna]

Moderation

 

Had to give...four users warning points? So I'm gonna make things brief.

 

 

This whole "critics don't get it" crap is not going to happen here anymore. The anti-critic circlejerks that happen every time they say mean things about a dumb kids movie, a kids movie that will make more money than you will ever make in your lifetime, a kids movie that only exists to sell toys and t-shirts and bedsheets to children, is beyond tired and beyond childish.

 

No, there's no grand conspiracy out there targeting DC movies. No, people aren't being "unfair" or "biased" towards a movie that's from a brand you're loyal to. If anything, it's ridiculous so many of you are leaping to defend a movie made by a megacorporation like this. So to everybody doing this, including @Warmaster506 @Johnny Tran @stephanos13, stop this now, or you will see a threadban. Trust me. I am not joking. You've been warned.

 

I apologize for sounding harsh and mean, but this is the only way some of you will listen. So I hope the message is loud and clear. Okay? Okay.

[21C]

19 minutes ago, Dragoncaine said:

The Suicide Squad was a total bomb and Gunn became the Creative Head of the franchise. I think Muschietti is staying as many reviews are citing the cinematography and action as a highlight (just not the VFX)

I find this comparison to be incredibly frustrating.
First of all, TSS had a bunch of factors working against it. Day-and-date, coming in the middle of the pandemic, rated R.
Second of all, TSS got some of the best critic scores for a CBM, something that The Flash does not have. The Flash has good reviews,  but absolutely nothing that tells "oh screw the box office the creative team behind this is something we 100% have to keep". It's obvious based on TSS critic scores why they'd keep Gunn even after it "undeperformed" on terrible circumstances, the same cannot be true for Muschietti in this instance.
Third, TSS was ALWAYS a gamble. It was an R-Rated sequel to a film that was critically panned and that went in a much different direction than its first film. James Gunn was hired to take that gamble, and judging by the critics scores on that, he clearly made the best of it, not to mention the way he followed it up with a hit streaming show immediately after. The only thing that TSS showed is that it was never going to do any better in the circumstances it released. That movie was as good as it could've been, and it was a gamble that under its circumstances didn't pay off. 
  By comparison, a standard superhero blockbuster featuring the return of Michael Keaton's Batman was a much much safer bet and there is all the reason to believe that if this film had been received more positively by critics, the potential box office would've been higher.

That's not even to mention that how an R-Rated The Suicide Squad movie does tells you pretty much nothing in regards to how a Gunn-lead DC universe would do, or how even a Gunn Superman movie would do. This movie, on the other hand, does give a pretty good indication as to how a Muschietti Batman blockbuster would do for obvious reasons— Batman is in all the marketing, he occupies a significant chunk of the movie, and it's a PG-13 superhero blockbuster. It's a no-brainer that if it doesn't perform well they'd have reason to not give Muschietti Brave and the Bold (in the simplest terms: If this guy can't make the return of pre-established Batman into a mega-hit, why would a Batman reboot by him perform any different?)

I think Muschietti's career as a whole will be fine. I'm not saying this is gonna kill his career. He might even direct another project for DC. But from a studio standpoint what about The Flash's reviews or performance here would lead anyone to give him the keys to the potentially very risky project of having yet another Batman reboot that is sandwiched in Pattinson's trilogy? 
 

Edited June 6, 2023 by 21C

[Dragoncaine]

15 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Now it hasn't even moved with the additional 80 from Empire lmao

 

Sometimes MC takes a bit to actually update the aggregate score, even when the individual scores have been included. Maybe this is one of those times? Or maybe Empire is also very lightly weighted (which I don't believe to be especially true).

[SpiderByte]

22 minutes ago, Phoenix22 said:

 

Shazam (2019) and The Suicide Squad (2021) both have 90% on RT.

Yeah, exactly. Those are much better received than this one.

[21C]

17 minutes ago, dudalb said:

I am not sure that DC will give up on the Elseworld, but I suspect that you are right it will end up with a modest profit, which is a better then a flop, sure but tsill not what DC spent all that money for.

Ithknk this film need a really good reception to get the not fanbase excited, and it did get that. it got  a pretty good reception.

And I repest, the sucess both critical and commercial olf ATSV might has stolen some of it's appeal.

I don't think they'll give up on elsewords as a whole, just that they won't be pursuing any potential Keaton spin-offs or more multi-dimensional crossover stories for the time being. I mean they have no real reason to.

[M37]

[Johnny Tran]

My point was that there are plenty of movies with "average" RT scores that have legged out solid (or sometimes great) box office runs, which points to general audience reception probably more so than what the RT audience scores even suggest.  

 

All that means is I don't believe today is a day to pile on The Flash and say that it's doomed.  But anyway, that's it.  Y'all have at it. 

[cooldude97]

it's weird with this D&D and indy 5 studios were desperately trying to recapture the lighting in a bottle that was the early screening of TGM at Cinemacon trying to build up good will months before release and all of them falling short either critically or financial (AKA D&D) 

[Mulder]

29 minutes ago, SpiderByte said:

Y'know it's been a while since DCs gotten a more middle of the road kind of reception. Usually it's either slam dunks or total embarrassment, but this is the first "pretty solid" since what, Aquaman?

In terms of your parameters (So ignoring Shazam, The Suicide Squad, and The Batman) there's also Birds of Prey & Zack Snyder's Justice League. DC just recently had a bad stretch with Black Adam and Shazam 2.

[SpiderByte]

Well need to see if the reviews have any impact in sales first.

[21C]

Just now, Johnny Tran said:

My point was that there are plenty of movies with "average" RT scores that have legged out solid (or sometimes great) box office runs, which points to general audience reception probably more so than what the RT audience scores even suggest.  

 

All that means is I don't believe today is a day to pile on The Flash and say that it's doomed.  But anyway, that's it.  Y'all have at it. 

No one is saying it's doomed, just that based on the tracking so far and these reviews there's no reason to believe it'll be a mega smash-hit either. It'll break even and make a bit of profit, and it doesn't exactly damage the brand, but it doesn't exactly move the needle for the studio either. 

[Blaze Heatnix]

73% isn't the worst score to get, BUT it needs to do better if you really sell it as one of the best superhero flicks. 

 

Anyway, no meltdowns to have. Nothing will ever top whatever happened during BVS release. 

 

I hope the movie has a very solid performance in box office and Gunn really makes a great Superman movie. 

[Krissykins]

12 minutes ago, Johnny Tran said:

My point was that there are plenty of movies with "average" RT scores that have legged out solid (or sometimes great) box office runs, which points to general audience reception probably more so than what the RT audience scores even suggest.  

 

All that means is I don't believe today is a day to pile on The Flash and say that it's doomed.  But anyway, that's it.  Y'all have at it. 

The biggest film of this current year is rotten with a green splat, so I get your point completely. 

[Johnny Tran]

11 minutes ago, 21C said:

No one is saying it's doomed, just that based on the tracking so far and these reviews there's no reason to believe it'll be a mega smash-hit either. It'll break even and make a bit of profit, and it doesn't exactly damage the brand, but it doesn't exactly move the needle for the studio either. 

 

I don't think it has to.  If it's a fun ride with some good nostalgia for the family then cool, whatever.  Personally, I think James Gunn's Superman is the movie that DC needs to be a big deal. 

[WittyUsername]

23 minutes ago, 21C said:

I find this comparison to be incredibly frustrating.
First of all, TSS had a bunch of factors working against it. Day-and-date, coming in the middle of the pandemic, rated R.
Second of all, TSS got some of the best critic scores for a CBM, something that The Flash does not have. The Flash has good reviews,  but absolutely nothing that tells "oh screw the box office the creative team behind this is something we 100% have to keep". It's obvious based on TSS critic scores why they'd keep Gunn even after it "undeperformed" on terrible circumstances, the same cannot be true for Muschietti in this instance.
Third, TSS was ALWAYS a gamble. It was an R-Rated sequel to a film that was critically panned and that went in a much different direction than its first film. James Gunn was hired to take that gamble, and judging by the critics scores on that, he clearly made the best of it, not to mention the way he followed it up with a hit streaming show immediately after. The only thing that TSS showed is that it was never going to do any better in the circumstances it released. That movie was as good as it could've been, and it was a gamble that under its circumstances didn't pay off. 
  By comparison, a standard superhero blockbuster featuring the return of Michael Keaton's Batman was a much much safer bet and there is all the reason to believe that if this film had been received more positively by critics, the potential box office would've been higher.

That's not even to mention that how an R-Rated The Suicide Squad movie does tells you pretty much nothing in regards to how a Gunn-lead DC universe would do, or how even a Gunn Superman movie would do. This movie, on the other hand, does give a pretty good indication as to how a Muschietti Batman blockbuster would do for obvious reasons— Batman is in all the marketing, he occupies a significant chunk of the movie, and it's a PG-13 superhero blockbuster. It's a no-brainer that if it doesn't perform well they'd have reason to not give Muschietti Brave and the Bold (in the simplest terms: If this guy can't make the return of pre-established Batman into a mega-hit, why would a Batman reboot by him perform any different?)

I think Muschietti's career as a whole will be fine. I'm not saying this is gonna kill his career. He might even direct another project for DC. But from a studio standpoint what about The Flash's reviews or performance here would lead anyone to give him the keys to the potentially very risky project of having yet another Batman reboot that is sandwiched in Pattinson's trilogy? 
 

I think the pandemic and the day and date arguments can only get you so far. GvK was also day and date and opened at an even worse time during the pandemic, but it made a lot more. Chances are that TSS would’ve flopped regardless, just like BoP. The DCEU in general has had trouble keeping audience interest in the 2020s. 

[Johnny Tran]

3 minutes ago, Blaze Heatnix said:

73% isn't the worst score to get, BUT it needs to do better if you really sell it as one of the best superhero flicks. 

 

I don't think this will be Joker-like divisive at all but there are a lot of people out there who called Joker the greatest comic book movie ever and it received awards, 11 Oscar nominations etc.  and the legs on it sure seemed to suggest that many people bought in and believed that hype.  The RT score, however, was I believe mid 60s.   

 

My point is that a movie could have a middling RT score and still receive that kind of praise (not saying that The Flash will)

[Felipe]

38 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Now it hasn't even moved with the additional 80 from Empire lmao

 

The Slant score is wrong on MC, it is being counted as a 50. The review actually is a 2.5/4 or a 63 on MC. That might help increase it to 61.

[21C]

7 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

I think the pandemic and the day and date arguments can only get you so far. GvK was also day and date and opened at an even worse time during the pandemic, but it made a lot more. Chances are that TSS would’ve flopped regardless, just like BoP. The DCEU in general has had trouble keeping audience interest in the 2020s. 

See, I also find that argument frustrating because guess what? GvK would also have made a ton more if not for the pandemic + day and date. The pandemic was a bizarre time to try to gauge the success or lack thereof of movies, and the streaming component complicated it a whole bunch. Without the pandemic and the streaming thing GvK might've made a billion, who knows. The pandemic times  had all sorts of variables that are impossible to account into normal circumstances, and the worst part is that those variables typically changed from month to month or even week to week. 

It's also hard to quantify what kind of effect day and date had on movies exactly. TSS is a bloody, irreverent movie that if given the option to watch it either on streaming or on a theater, it makes sense why audiences would choose the former, even with good word of mouth. I don't think it's far-fetched to think that for certain types of films, day-and-date  cuts at the kneecaps more than for others.

Edited June 6, 2023 by 21C