91st Academy Awards - Discussion thread - RACISM IS OVER, THANKS GREEN BOOK

[Mulder]

Just now, Barnack said:

That a completely different point you are making, ( maybe we are in 2 different conversation right now), my message was:

 

The thing is the movie never points it out as a bad thing, 

 

Point what has a bad thing ?

 

 just a charming attribute of Viggo's character that's never fully addressed. 

 

How is it not charming the poor people showing is way of life to the elites, what should be addressed ? Was DiCaprio character showing how the poor dance and have fun to the elite in Titanic a big issue, that should have been addressed ? Yes it promote some weird false stereotype that elites do not have funs in parties and are make it bigger how out of touch they are, but that what movie do, make stuff bigger than life for amusement.

 

Maybe Viggo character started has more refined, less caricature of a racist, those end up meeting in the middle learning of each other story are interesting has how big the cap was.

 

Take The Imitation Game, that was really far from Turing personality apparently, but that how you turn it in a successful movie.

That Viggo's character stereotypes Don Shirley and then rather then being shown that it's a bad thing to stereotype someone is reinforced that it's ok to do that and Don Shirley was in the wrong. Also comparing this to the Imitation Game doesn't help your case at all lmao.

[MovieMan89]

if I ever knew a fellow Mexican who got offended if someone pointed out that burritos are a popular food in our cuisine, I would literally tell them to get a grip and worry about things that are actually offensive in the world.

[Mulder]

1 minute ago, MovieMan89 said:

if I ever knew a fellow Mexican who got offended if someone pointed out that burritos are a popular food in our cuisine, I would literally tell them to get a grip and worry about things that are actually offensive in the world.

Glad to know only your opinion counts MovieMan and that you and you alone should speak for minorities.

[MovieMan89]

Just now, Mulder said:

Glad to know only your opinion counts MovieMan and that you and you alone should speak for minorities.

Thankfully I have never and doubt will ever know a Mexican who would be offended by that. So happy the real world isn’t the internet.

[Barnack]

7 minutes ago, Mulder said:

That Viggo's character stereotypes Don Shirley and then rather then being shown that it's a bad thing to stereotype someone is reinforced that it's ok to do that and Don Shirley was in the wrong. Also comparing this to the Imitation Game doesn't help your case at all lmao.

Help my case ?

 

I was not aware of the rich person never tried Fried Chicken stereotype ? But how is he stereotyping him about it, is he not surprised that he never had it ?

Edited February 25, 2019 by Barnack

[Mulder]

Just now, MovieMan89 said:

Thankfully I have never and doubt will ever know a Mexican who would be offended by that. So happy the real world isn’t the internet.

Honestly judging by your posts you probably find Rogue One and The Last Jedi more offensive then most things so you're not really one to talk.

[Mulder]

1 minute ago, Barnack said:

Help my case ?

 

I was not aware of the rich person never tried Fried Chicken stereotype ? But how is he stereotyping him about it, is he not surprised that he never had it ?

....Barnack it's a stereotype about black people. The whole scene is trying to say that Shirley is out of touch with black people.

[Barnack]

1 minute ago, Mulder said:

....Barnack it's a stereotype about black people. The whole scene is trying to say that Shirley is out of touch with black people.

The movie do address that when Shirley has is break down for not being accepted by the elites nor the black people, living him without any identity no ? (that why I thought it was an other one stereotype going on)

 

My the Imitation Game example is just to show that fiction bending for the movie entertainment value reality is just ultra common, take how much The Hidden Figure did bent reality (Katherine G. Johnson didn't even knew the bathroom were segregated and used them for 2 year's before getting aware of it, but you do not have much of a movie without creating those made up conflict).

[Mulder]

1 minute ago, Barnack said:

The movie do address that when Shirley has is break down for not being accepted by the elites nor the black people, living him without any identity no ? (that why I thought it was an other one stereotype going on)

 

My the Imitation Game example is just to show that fiction bending for the movie entertainment value reality is just ultra common, take how much The Hidden Figure did bent reality (Katherine G. Johnson didn't even knew the bathroom were segregated and used them for 2 year's before getting aware of it, but you do not have much of a movie without creating those made up conflict).

Yeah but it's not about Viggo's character or his actions at all. The closest his character comes to being condoned for his racism is when Shirley overhears him talking in Italian that's about it. As for Imitation Game and Green Book, both get maligned mainly because they present the characters in the lens of the majority not the minority, not because they change history.

[Rebeccas]

2 minutes ago, Mulder said:

Yeah but it's not about Viggo's character or his actions at all. The closest his character comes to being condoned for his racism is when Shirley overhears him talking in Italian that's about it. As for Imitation Game and Green Book, both get maligned mainly because they present the characters in the lens of the majority not the minority, not because they change history.

Also we look at an example from this last year that shows a different way to do an interracial friendship story which is Blackkklansman. There are several redeeming white characters in the film and there's even a few moments that straddle the "white person saves the day" line but the difference is the black character is the active participant and POV throughout the film.

[Mulder]

1 minute ago, Rebeccas said:

Also we look at an example from this last year that shows a different way to do an interracial friendship story which is Blackkklansman. There are several redeeming white characters in the film and there's even a few moments that straddle the "white person saves the day" line but the difference is the black character is the active participant and POV throughout the film.

Exactly. BlackKklansman is not a "ALL WHITE PEOPLE ARE BAD" movie at all. It's dedicated to a white woman after all.

[Jake Gittes]

14 minutes ago, MovieMan89 said:

Don’t bother trying to reason with anyone on this one. Some people are desperate to find something that isn’t there. Just like the movie where a black man is the cultured, intelligent one that teaches the ignorant white guy how to be less ignorant and racist is somehow a “white savior” movie. Because what a horrific concept for a racist to realize the error of their ways and change. We don’t want that in the world. More “race war is inevitable” messages please. 

He's cultured and intelligent, and yet somehow without the ignorant white guy he can't do shit. Can't eat fried chicken without his help, can't know who Aretha Franklin is without his help, can't have a gay fling without having to get rescued by him, can't even make his own decision about whether to play or not in the end without him. Now ain't that convenient? 

 

The problem isn't that that a racist realizes the error of his ways and changes. The problem is that in execution it's once again hokey fairytale bullshit. Tony Lip, a middle-aged man, starts the movie fucking tossing glasses black men drank from in the garbage, but it takes just a few days on the road for him to magically get cured of that bigotry and the movie never, ever presses him about it all while it undermines and questions nearly every aspect of Shirley's identity and lifestyle, all the way up until he's finally dragged down to Tony's level.

 

And it's not actually that hard to depict a sympathetic, interesting interracial friendship or partnership, where both characters get respected. All it takes is understanding the line between the larger world treating your characters as not equal, and you as a creator doing the same. 

[MovieMan89]

5 minutes ago, Mulder said:

Exactly. BlackKklansman is not a "ALL WHITE PEOPLE ARE BAD" movie at all. It's dedicated to a white woman after all.

Who was saying it was? You can’t deny however that the movie ends with the message that nothing has changed in 40 years. I’m sorry, but I don’t agree with that. Yeah there’s problems and a ways to go, but I think the progress made absolutely outweighs the problems still existing. What’s even more troubling about the ending is it offers absolutely no proposal for how to fix anything going forward. It literally just ends on the note that nothing has changed.

[TalismanRing]

Preferential voting is most likely why Green Book won.   It's all those 2nd, 3rd and even 4th and 5th place votes that add up even if most didn't place it as their #1.

 

As for Coleman and category fraud - she was as much a lead as Weisz and Stone - they were the ones in the wrong category having an advantage over true supporting performances with more screen time and in depth roles.  Coleman didn't gain any advantages being in Lead except she  didn't have to compete against  the other two strongest lead female performances of the year who were in the wrong category. 

 

It's Ali's category fraud that hurt others in his category.  Richard E Grant should have won in a true supporting performance.

[Jake Gittes]

8 minutes ago, Rebeccas said:

Also we look at an example from this last year that shows a different way to do an interracial friendship story which is Blackkklansman. There are several redeeming white characters in the film and there's even a few moments that straddle the "white person saves the day" line but the difference is the black character is the active participant and POV throughout the film.

Support the Girls and Widows are fine interracial friendship stories. True Detective season 3 has an interracial partnership spanning decades and believably gives its two leads both friendly and racism-charged antagonistic moments, because, unlike Green Book, it 1) knows that in the real world racism is much more deep-rooted than something you can just "learn" not to have, and 2) is more concerned with making its characters interesting rather than likable. 

[Rebeccas]

2 minutes ago, TalismanRing said:

Preferential voting is most likely why Green Book won.   It's all those 2nd, 3rd and even 4th and 5th place votes that add up even if most didn't place it as their #1.

 

As for Coleman and category fraud - she was as much a lead as Weisz and Stone - they were the ones in the wrong category having an advantage over true supporting performances with more screen time and in depth roles.  Coleman didn't gain any advantages being in Lead except she  didn't have to compete against  the other two strongest lead female performances of the year who were in the wrong category. 

 

It's Ali's category fraud that hurt others in his category.  Richard E Grant should have won in a true supporting performance.

It's basically impossible for any film to win on first round #1's so yeah, this is what happens. I do think a lot of voters found Roma boring and didn't finish it, thus ranking it rather low. What I don't like is how Best Picture and Director seem to be nearly divorced at this point save for last year.

[Jake Gittes]

6 minutes ago, MovieMan89 said:

What’s even more troubling about the ending is it offers absolutely no proposal for how to fix anything going forward.

That's not art's job. 

[CoolioD1]

i never bought this olivia colman is category fraud nonsense. i said it before but if that movie was about emma stone and rachel weisz trying to win the favour of a king people would have no problem saying the dude playing the king was a lead actor. the movie has three leads!! colman winning in lead will be a lot better for her profile than a supporting win i think, there's still that hierarchy there. also the fact that it was kinda a surprise that she won and she had the best speech will make people pay attention to her if they weren't already.

Edited February 25, 2019 by CoolioD1

[TalismanRing]

2 minutes ago, Rebeccas said:

It's basically impossible for any film to win on first round #1's so yeah, this is what happens. I do think a lot of voters found Roma boring and didn't finish it, thus ranking it rather low. What I don't like is how Best Picture and Director seem to be nearly divorced at this point save for last year.

As longs Best Picture is the only category with a different scoring system that's going to continue to happen.

[MovieMan89]

7 minutes ago, Rebeccas said:

It's basically impossible for any film to win on first round #1's so yeah, this is what happens. I do think a lot of voters found Roma boring and didn't finish it, thus ranking it rather low. What I don't like is how Best Picture and Director seem to be nearly divorced at this point save for last year.

It is rather odd that BP and BD splits are now the norm, but at the same time I kind of like it as a spread the love type of thing. Allows for more movies to get a major accolade.