The Marvels | November 10, 2023 | Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter

[ListenHunnyUrOver]

3 hours ago, AN9815 said:

Some of you guys are acting like The Marvels will kill the entire MCU. This hasn't even been released yet, chill. Hopefully this will get good/great reviews, and even if it doesn't I think Quantumania and the Disney+ shows have caused more damage than a mediocre Captain Marvel sequel. They are not going to completely ignore Captain Marvel as a character in future movies and remove her from the MCU, as much as some of you would like that.  

 

In my opinion, they have realized way to late of what was happening to the MCU but hopefully they will course correct it for future phases. Unfortunately, upcoming movies are going to underperform because of this. I think if this would have been released in 2022 it would be tracking way better. 

It’s not just The Marvels, it’s also the poor reception of Secret Wars, the underperformance of Ant-Man 3, the decline of superhero movies overall, and a general lack of direction. 

[Valonqar]

Do you guys know why MCU worked until Endgame? I'm curious to hear opinions and please don't say quality cause there were quite a few clunkers if we are being honest. But that was overlooked for larger value. So what does everyone think? Instead of talking in circles about what doesn't work now, lets start with what worked then. So why do you think that MCU worked between Iron Man (2008) and Endgame (2019)? 11 years.

[HummingLemon496]

41 minutes ago, SpiderByte said:

It's really hard to buy the "audiences hate the multiverse" thing when the biggest movies are No Way Home and Multiverse of Madness and the biggest Disney+ show is Loki. In terms of the multiverse stuff Quantumania is an exception.

Tbh I wouldn't even call Quantumania the exception. It had amazing presales and still opened to $100M+. The GA was hyped for it. It just collapsed because of awful reception.

 

And there's also ATSV with a massive $381M domestic total

 

The GA goes batshit over the multiverse. . .when it's in Marvel/MCU specifically

Edited October 14, 2023 by HummingLemon496

[ListenHunnyUrOver]

1 minute ago, Valonqar said:

Do you guys know why MCU worked until Endgame? I'm curious to hear opinions and please don't say quality cause there were quite a few clunkers if we are being honest. But that was overlooked for larger value. So what does everyone think? Instead of talking in circles about what doesn't work now, lets start with what worked then. So why do you think that MCU worked between Iron Man (2008) and Endgame (2019)? 11 years.

The idea of crossover events have always been popular. Look at Freddy vs. Jason. The MCU just used that excitement to its fullest potential. 

[The GOAT]

6 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

Do you guys know why MCU worked until Endgame? I'm curious to hear opinions and please don't say quality cause there were quite a few clunkers if we are being honest. But that was overlooked for larger value. So what does everyone think? Instead of talking in circles about what doesn't work now, lets start with what worked then. So why do you think that MCU worked between Iron Man (2008) and Endgame (2019)? 11 years.

Because they were driven to complete a long spectacular arc that mattered to the creatives? Now that they have no direction and lack the intuitive to create GREAT standalone movies, they are stuck shooting fish in a barrel. It doesn't help that none of these indie directors have the know-how to effectively manipulate CGI and special effects to their advantage and the artistic vision as a whole. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by The GOAT

[Valonqar]

Agreed. Also, I think that big reason for appeal and direction was the dynamic between Tony and Cap. Tony representing the cynical modern world and values (money grabbing, selfishness, narcissism) and Cap the old world values (old fashioned heroism, selflessness, volunteering). They were 2 types of heroes, a flawed one how heroes are and a perfect one how heroes should be but aren't. The clash of their world-views was also a commentary on the world itself so that was relatable. I guess with the cultural climate change, that changed but instead of new dynamic that is lets say more critical of the old (whereas Cap/Tony dynamic was nostalgic about the old values), there's no dynamic at all while most characters aren't really new but replacements of old characters without having the archetype recognition that made OGs timeless or at least some of them. So now in place of a cynical playboy billionaire inventor who becomes a hero after learning humility (though never becoming humble) we have a prodigy student (Iron Heart). In place of a WW2 hero stuck in the modern world who serves as a commentary on that world, we have a War on Terror vet who can't get a bank loan. Etc. And they are all in movies and shows that don't have the kind of connection that MCU used to have. As on the nose as SHIELD agents were eevry time they popped in movies to explain that this connects to everything, the trick actually worked. Also, there was a lot of bulding towards something which included characters getting to know each other gradually and that hooked the audience. Gimmick without characters to care can't go on for long. 

[keysersoze123]

Iron Man and Cap were the MVP for sure. I am not certain bringing them back is the solution. Better off making F4 or XMen successful and use the other successful cast members like Spidey, Star Lord, Dr Strange etc to build another team movie. 

[WittyUsername]

I want to point out for the record that the MCU was by no means meticulously planned out during the Infinity Saga. Marvel was very much figuring things out as they went along. For example, the decision to make Thanos the overarching villain came about fairly late in production on The Avengers, and Marvel didn’t even know what Thanos’ motives would be until writing began on Infinity War. 

 

In terms of what made the MCU so successful from 2008-2019, it was a different approach to franchise filmmaking. Movie crossovers existed in the past, but they were always gimmicky cashgrabs. The idea of an interconnected cinematic universe was new and exciting. Nowadays though, it’s become the norm. The novelty is gone now. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by WittyUsername

[SpiderByte]

Well they already have a new Captain America. But I don't think they're recasting Tony Stark as long as Feiges has a say. I think it's far more likely Rhodey becomes Iron Man then they just shove everyone aside to bring Tony back long term

[toutvabien]

35 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

Do you guys know why MCU worked until Endgame? I'm curious to hear opinions and please don't say quality cause there were quite a few clunkers if we are being honest. But that was overlooked for larger value. So what does everyone think? Instead of talking in circles about what doesn't work now, lets start with what worked then. So why do you think that MCU worked between Iron Man (2008) and Endgame (2019)? 11 years.

I've said this before in this thread, but we never really got to wonder when we're gonna be seeing those characters next. We had a basic idea. Thor and Cap debuted in 2011 and by the end of the saga they had 7 appearances each. There was a point in time when not seeing Thor in Civil War after Age of Ultron and getting back to him with Ragnarok felt like a notable wait. You got rewarded fairly fast for investing into most of those characters - the only exception being the Hulk. Even Nick Fury was popping off once every two years. Maybe this translates to something more specific, maybe it's the nature of a successful cinematic universe and they only were able to continue doing that because of its success, so it can't really be a cause to that success IG. But it's one element that feels crazy to think about now.

[Valonqar]

14 minutes ago, keysersoze123 said:

Iron Man and Cap were the MVP for sure. I am not certain bringing them back is the solution. Better off making F4 or XMen successful and use the other successful cast members like Spidey, Star Lord, Dr Strange etc to build another team movie. 

 

Defo not bring them back - would be lazy. Create new dynamic. 

 

10 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

I want to point out for the record that the MCU was by no means meticulously planned out during the Infinity Saga. Marvel was very much figuring things out as they went along. For example, the decision to make Thanos the overarching villain came about fairly late in production on The Avengers, and Marvel didn’t even know what Thanos’ motives would be until writing began on Infinity War. 

 

In terms of what made the MCU so successful from 2008-2019, it was a different approach to franchise filmmaking. Movie crossovers existed in the past, but they were always gimmicky cashgrabs. The idea of an interconnected cinematic universe was new and exciting. Nowadays though, it’s become the norm. The novelty is gone now. 

 

And speaking of Thanos, they couldn't even agree whether he was a purple alien or Joss Whedon lookalike. the evolution of his look is quite something.

 

5 minutes ago, toutvabien said:

I've said this before in this thread, but we never really got to wonder when we're gonna be seeing those characters next. We had a basic idea. Thor and Cap debuted in 2011 and by the end of the saga they had 7 appearances each. There was a point in time when not seeing Thor in Civil War after Age of Ultron and getting back to him with Ragnarok felt like a notable wait. You got rewarded fairly fast for investing into most of those characters - the only exception being the Hulk. Even Nick Fury was popping off once every two years. Maybe this translates to something more specific, maybe it's the nature of a successful cinematic universe and they only were able to continue doing that because of its success, so it can't really be a cause to that success IG. But it's one element that feels crazy to think about now.

 

it's always more than 1 element so that adds up too!

[Zakiyyah6]

The MCU worked because the MCU used to be a character first focused series with a fast pace and easter eggs that you could pay attention to or ignore. People came back mainly because of the lovable characters not any convoluted plot lines. The DCEU failed because the first Superman movie goes out of its way to make him depressed and unlikable to the gen pop. Nobody wants to hang out with Snyder's Superman.

 

Somewhere along the way Marvel forgot that likable character first formula and started getting too caught up in plots and settings future events up. You can see it in stuff like Captain Marvel even before Phase 4. Old MCU would have never sacrificed Captain Marvel's likability just to bring in an Oscar winner who may or may not be right for the role and focus more on the plot than making people like her.

[PlatnumRoyce]

1 hour ago, WittyUsername said:

I want to point out for the record that the MCU was by no means meticulously planned out during the Infinity Saga. Marvel was very much figuring things out as they went along. For example, the decision to make Thanos the overarching villain came about fairly late in production on The Avengers, and Marvel didn’t even know what Thanos’ motives would be until writing began on Infinity War. 

 

In terms of what made the MCU so successful from 2008-2019, it was a different approach to franchise filmmaking. Movie crossovers existed in the past, but they were always gimmicky cashgrabs. The idea of an interconnected cinematic universe was new and exciting. Nowadays though, it’s become the norm. The novelty is gone now. 

The "infinity saga" is a great branding term that works for fandom but in terms of something like "production history" I really wish something like "Avengers Assemble" (alt title for 2012's Avengers) gained traction as its own self-contained "MCU era" because that's basically what it was. The Avengers was a big combination of capstone film and introduction (given how much smaller MCU was domestic and especially globally pre-Avengers). That really matters because it highlights how Avengers 1 really floated goodwill that both wiped out any bad taste from Hulk (and low gross from Cap 1) and boosted reception of mediocre films like Thor 2, IM3 (which really could have ended up playing more divisively than it really did), etc. 

 

We're really in the "third" MCU phase/macro-phase not the second or "fifth" one. 

 

The pandemic really obscures how films like Shang-Chi, Black Widow and Eternals all showed how residual goodwill from Endgame really elevated 2 mediocre films (BW/Eternals) and what should have been 2 pretty low grossing films (Shang/Eternals). All 3 films effectively had 9 figure OW grades. Endgame laid open the possibility for a bridge to another "saga" of films and it was clearly squandered. 

[TMP]

The MCU’s business model is built on momentum - a global pandemic, two strikes and the pithy comments of an old man were enough to slow that momentum down to the point where the whole thing’s gonna collapse in on itself now. This was always the cinematic equivalent of instant gratification - making people wait long for fast food was never gonna work, especially when the calories are this empty.

[Bob Train]

8 minutes ago, TMP said:

The MCU’s business model is built on momentum - a global pandemic, two strikes and the pithy comments of an old man were enough to slow that momentum down to the point where the whole thing’s gonna collapse in on itself now. This was always the cinematic equivalent of instant gratification - making people wait long for fast food was never gonna work, especially when the calories are this empty.

Mattel cinematic universe vs Nintendo cinematic universe will be the new MCU vs DCEU

[Maggie]

10 minutes ago, TMP said:

The MCU’s business model is built on momentum - a global pandemic, two strikes and the pithy comments of an old man were enough to slow that momentum down to the point where the whole thing’s gonna collapse in on itself now. This was always the cinematic equivalent of instant gratification - making people wait long for fast food was never gonna work, especially when the calories are this empty.

This is actually PERFECT!

[TheFlatLannister]

14 minutes ago, TMP said:

The MCU’s business model is built on momentum - a global pandemic, two strikes and the pithy comments of an old man were enough to slow that momentum down to the point where the whole thing’s gonna collapse in on itself now. This was always the cinematic equivalent of instant gratification - making people wait long for fast food was never gonna work, especially when the calories are this empty.

Pithy old man? Wait are you referring to Martin scorsese? I can guarantee you, his comments have nothing to do with the MCU's decline😂

[Valencia]

1 hour ago, TMP said:

The MCU’s business model is built on momentum - a global pandemic, two strikes and the pithy comments of an old man were enough to slow that momentum down to the point where the whole thing’s gonna collapse in on itself now. This was always the cinematic equivalent of instant gratification - making people wait long for fast food was never gonna work, especially when the calories are this empty.

Is the old man supposed to be Martin Scorsese?

The CBM audience/GA/Gen Z has no idea who that is lmao.

[Sckathian]

4 hours ago, The GOAT said:

It doesn't help that none of these indie directors have the know-how to effectively manipulate CGI and special effects to their advantage and the artistic vision as a whole. 

I think this is a problem for MCU. A lot of directors really don’t want to work with them and you have some intern dictating how a scene should be because the CG team needed to start work before production.

[BOfficeStats]

5 hours ago, Valonqar said:

Do you guys know why MCU worked until Endgame? I'm curious to hear opinions and please don't say quality cause there were quite a few clunkers if we are being honest. But that was overlooked for larger value. So what does everyone think? Instead of talking in circles about what doesn't work now, lets start with what worked then. So why do you think that MCU worked between Iron Man (2008) and Endgame (2019)? 11 years.

I think there are 3 big reasons why.

 

1.  Expectations were not incredibly high until 2018.  Before the MCU there weren't any previous blockbuster films based on MCU characters (excluding Spider-Man) and there were 0 crossovers with other universes. This helped keep expectations down since people didn't have much to compare it to besides DC films, Fox X-Men films, and Sony live-action Spider-Man films which were all struggling by 2014-2016.  It seemed like the MCU just kept getting better and better while their competition kept disappointing.  

 

2.  The short gap between sequels and low amount of non-sequels made it easy to hype up each new release.  Only a maximum of one non-sequel was released each year from 2012-2019.  Every film but Iron Man 3 released between 2010-2015 got a sequel that released <3 years later.  It was easy to convince people to watch each film since 2/3rds of them are about characters the audience is familiar with and liked since The Avengers (2012) and the other 1/3rd have a clear hook to draw people in.  

 

3.  Most of the big MCU blockbusters from 2008-2019 are at least as good, if not better than most of their PG-13 action-adventure blockbuster competition.  For a while they were THE obvious safe choice for moviegoers who wanted likeable characters, a decent and not too serious story, and explosions all in one package.  

Edited October 15, 2023 by BOfficeStats