Avatar: The Way of Water | 16 DEC 2022 | Don't worry guys, critics like it

[Cochofles]

And yet you are here trying to convince people that a film that had a 10 multiplier is something that nobody liked. You try to convince people that a movie that had extraordinary word of mouth had it only because of its colors and effects and had nothing to do with the characters. Right. Maybe if you keep saying it a lot of times, it will magically become true. :)Reminds me of when Titanic came out; after a while, the inevitable backlash started, the detractors had the same ole arguments a few years after Titanic mania had died down: «It was a hit only because the then ground-breaking FX, only because of stupid teenagers, only because of stupid women, its characters were cardboard, if you watch it at home its flaws are evident, it is boring, it is extremely overrated, after only ____ years, nobody talks about it, people have completely fortgotten about it." And yet here we are, Titanic is an iconic classic, and AVATAR is too, whether you like it or not. Sorry, man. I could say that Madonna is not one of the most influential singers of all time(only because I don't like her), but saying it won't make it true.

Edited July 17, 2014 by cochofles

[lilmac]

I don't dislike Titanic (okay I don't dislike this one I just find it highly overrated.) and Avatar for being romantic epics, even though Avatar really isn't a romantic epic.Avatar is a visual wonderful with an immersive visual environment, it sucks you in, especially on that big screen with 3D. I was definitely suckered when I first saw if, it was only when I finally went back to watch it at my own home that I realized how weak the movie actually is. At home it was no longer as immersive as before, and I realized that all aspects that didn't correlate towards the technical visual aspects were extremely weak.The film ended up feeling overly long and boring and directly stealing from many movies in the past. There wasn't anything original about it, it relied solely on the epic immersive aspects to carry the movie, and for the time it was released that worked wonders. But there is a reason you rarely see people talk about Avatar as movie nowadays (besides it grossing a lot of money), it was a visual wonder that everyone flocked to see and after many other visual marvels came out however it was never truly ingrained into culture like titanic was.

 

I tend to agree.  Avatar was the first film to truly get 3D 'right'.  Alot of the appeal (and the dollars) came from 3D screenings.  5 years later and with 3D saturating the market, it won't have that going for it.  Unless Cameron knocks it out of the park again and gives us something new, I don't see the sequels getting above $500m.  The aftertaste for Avatar is more sour than after Titanic.  People will still flock and if the $1 billion combined budget rumors are true, it will still make a profit, but I don't see Cameron getting the #3,#4, and #5 spots on the all time list with these films.  

[Ethan Hunt]

That is one of many scenes from AVATAR that give me goose bumps.Others are:* When the seeds of Eywa surround Jake.* When Home Tree is destroyed and the natives look on in horror, disbelief, and utter heartbreak.* When Pandora's ecosystem fights back; that scene game me goosebumps AND made me cheer right there in the movie theatre!* When the Tanathor dies at the hands of that bastard Quarritch. That made me cry. Heck, even writing these makes me a little misty-eyed.* When Jake first rides his ikran* When Grace dies. Ugh, that was sad as heck....* When Neytiri discovers that her father has been impaled* When Quarritch gets his comeuppance at the hands of Neytiri* That scene towards the end when Neytiri first sees Jake's true form (after he almost died due to the planet's toxic atmosphere) and Jake first sees Neytiri through his human form's eyes. God, the way she holds him in her arms tenderly...the way they look at each other with love, and the way theay finally "see" each other... I was devastated, and bawling like a child.Sorry, but once again I have to remind people that this is exactly why AVATAR connected with audiences: at the end of the day, the allegedly flimsy, cardboard thin characters is what made people care. I know I did, and everyone I know did. Of course, those people that I know are not vocal internet fanboys who hate Cameron because he decided to make a —GASP!— romantic epic. The Horror! And of course, since AVATAR is also a romantic epic at heart, those fanboys are even more hateful towards the guy.

Avatar in general was an emotional experience , The  bolded part is the one that really got to me.

[The Panda]

And yet you are here trying to convince people that a film that had a 10 multiplier is something that nobody liked. You try to convince people that a movie that had extraordinary word of mouth had it only because of its colors and effects and had nothing to do with the characters. Right. Maybe if you keep saying it a lot of times, it will magically become true. :)Reminds me of when Titanic came out; after a while, the inevitable backlash started, the detractors had the same ole arguments a few years after Titanic mania had died down: «It was a hit only because the then ground-breaking FX, only because of stupid teenagers, only because of stupid women, its characters were cardboard, if you watch it at home its flaws are evident, it is boring, it is extremely overrated, after only ____ years, nobody talks about it, people have completely fortgotten about it." And yet here we are, Titanic is an iconic classic, and AVATAR is too, whether you like it or not. Sorry, man. I could say that Madonna is not one of the most influential singers of all time(only because I don't like her), but saying it won't make it true.

Titanic hit because of emotional resonance, Avatar hit because it was an immersive experience, something completely new and unseen. Take out Avatar's massive 3D share and it's smaller than Titanic with smaller legs, it was a phenomenon, but it hasn't ingrained itself in culture like Titanic has. (You could argue 3D is the cultural ingraining but 3D is mostly a dying trend now)Example? You never hear somebody quote Avatar, but people quote Titanic all the time. Titanic's story is still constantly discussed such as if Rose could have actually saved Jack (room for two) nobody ever discusses Avatar's story unless they're on the Avatar thread of a box office forum. People post Titanic references and gifs all the time, Avatar is fairly rare.Avatar was deceptive, it was an immersive experience only to reveal itself as a hollow eggshell when it came out on DVD.If you ask a GA member some of their favorite movies many will mention Titanic and few to none will say Avatar is one of them (except Kal but idk if he classifies as a GA member).Avatar wasn't a success for its story, the story was merely a tool to give the audience immersion to a strange new world (which is where it succeeded).

[Moviedweeb]

but I don't see Cameron getting the #3,#4, and #5 spots on the all time list with these films.

WW it very well might.

[lilmac]

WW it very well might.

 

 

Avatar 2/3/4 can make a profit on OS alone.  They eat 3D up.

[The Panda]

WW it very well might.

 

Possibly, I am very curious about how it does internationally, a big part of me thinks it's going to have a big drop due to more 3D saturation and its 3D not really being special anymore.  However, it has great OS potential.

[Ethan Hunt]

Possibly, I am very curious about how it does internationally, a big part of me thinks it's going to have a big drop due to more 3D saturation and its 3D not really being special anymore.  However, it has great OS potential.

These films well do well domestic and overseas, just not as well as the first one.

[The Panda]

These films well do well domestic and overseas, just not as well as the first one.

 

I'm not doubting they will do well anywhere, Avatar 2 is guaranteed to break 350m Domestic which will make it an instant success.  Im just wondering how close they can get to the first, personally I think an Empire Strikes Back drop (or even bigger) is in store, at least for domestic.  Especially if the Star Wars spin-off is also in December because then you have two large sci-fi blockbusters going head to head.

[Ethan Hunt]

I'm not doubting they will do well anywhere, Avatar 2 is guaranteed to break 350m Domestic which will make it an instant success.  Im just wondering how close they can get to the first, personally I think an Empire Strikes Back drop (or even bigger) is in store, at least for domestic.  Especially if the Star Wars spin-off is also in December because then you have two large sci-fi blockbusters going head to head.

Only if Star Wars Seven and Avatar 2 were released on the same weekend... 

[Cochofles]

The aftertaste for Avatar is more sour than after Titanic.

You mean “online aftertaste from very vocal internet critics"? Because everyone I know in real life who saw the film with me and with others, and people in my college, who happened to watch it are anticipating the sequelt. I have not heard a single «That film was crap and all it ha dgoing for it was 3D» from offline. It's always amusing to me seeing all these incredibly confident assertions from vocal detractors saying “Nobody liked it” and «the aftertaste is really bad”; the reality is that you don't do ten times your opening with bad word of mouth. And please, don't give me that whole crap about people realizing that they hated it once they saw it at home, because that doesn't make sense. The film kept on selling, and if the DVD word of mouth had been so awful, DVD sales would've completely crashed and burned past week one. Actually, I cannot wait to see what the excuses will be this time: when the sequel comes out and opens well and starts breaking records left and right...what will detractors say to justify its success and make it seem that the films itself is awful? I can already see things as absurdly ridiculous as «Nobody likes AVATAR 2; it's smashing because the first one was a big hit/because it has Cameron at the helm/because people are dumb/because women are stupid/because audiences are idiots/because of 3D/because it has lots of actionblahblahblah...” or «Just because it has astonishing word of mouth and repeat business doesn't mean that audiences are loving it.” Huh?

[dashrendar44]

Avatar wasn't a success for its story, the story was merely a tool to give the audience immersion to a strange new world (which is where it succeeded).

 

Or maybe GA loved the story that YOU didn't like, that's why the rewatch factor was ginormous because the story of Avatar was all about...Wait for it...IMMERSION INTO A STRANGE NEW WORLD. Has that simple option never occured to you?

 

I mean do you really believe Avatar's numbers would be the same if it was a drama story about a miner guy and his everyday life on that planet digging for Unobtainium not caring about the Natives but how he can gain more bucks to get back on Earth to help his starving family? Or a closed place thriller in the scientist basement involving a Pandorian animal rampaging through the corridors? Where is the immersion in that world?

 

The key word is "compelling" and framing the right story in the right context that suits a vision. An epic scifi fantasy, it works on a structural level, no fat, only purposeful elements that propel and drive the story forward. It's effective screenwriting 101.

Edited July 17, 2014 by dashrendar44

[Cochofles]

Titanic hit because of emotional resonance, Avatar hit because it was an immersive experience, something completely new and unseen. Take out Avatar's massive 3D share and it's smaller than Titanic with smaller legs, it was a phenomenon, but it hasn't ingrained itself in culture like Titanic has. (You could argue 3D is the cultural ingraining but 3D is mostly a dying trend now)Example? You never hear somebody quote Avatar, but people quote Titanic all the time. Titanic's story is still constantly discussed such as if Rose could have actually saved Jack (room for two) nobody ever discusses Avatar's story unless they're on the Avatar thread of a box office forum. People post Titanic references and gifs all the time, Avatar is fairly rare.Avatar was deceptive, it was an immersive experience only to reveal itself as a hollow eggshell when it came out on DVD.If you ask a GA member some of their favorite movies many will mention Titanic and few to none will say Avatar is one of them (except Kal but idk if he classifies as a GA member).Avatar wasn't a success for its story, the story was merely a tool to give the audience immersion to a strange new world (which is where it succeeded).

Funny how statistical evidence works: you say that nobody quotes, mentions, talks about, or references AVATAR, yet I see all of that all the time. Hmm... You say that AVATAR's story didn't succeed, yet everyone I know loved it because of the story and its characters. Hmm. So yeah, keep dreaming. I guess we both live in different parts of town, and in your part of town nobody likes the film, and in mine, everyone does. Funny how that works, eh?

[Ethan Hunt]

Funny how statistical evidence works: you say that nobody quotes, mentions, talks about, or references AVATAR, yet I see all of that all the time. Hmm... You say that AVATAR's story didn't succeed, yet everyone I know loved it because of the story and its characters. Hmm. So yeah, keep dreaming. I guess we both live in different parts of town, and in your part of town nobody likes the film, and in mine, everyone does. Funny how that works, eh?

I defenintly live in your part of town cochofles.

[Hatebox]

Avatar's cultural impact has been discussed a lot on this site. I lean towards the 'for a movie that made that much money it's surprising that it's not more talked about/referenced' side of the debate, but the whole Na'vi look does seem to have ingrained itself in the broader consciousness somewhat.

[Cochofles]

Or maybe GA loved the story that YOU didn't like, that's why the rewatch factor was ginormous because the story of Avatar was all about...Wait for it...IMMERSION INTO A STRANGE NEW WORLD. Has that simple option never occured to you?I mean do you really believe Avatar's numbers would be the same if it was a drama story about a miner guy and his everyday life on that planet digging for Unobtainium not caring about the Natives but how he can gain more bucks to get back on Earth to help his starving family? Or a closed place thriller in the scientist basement involving a Pandorian animal rampaging through the corridors? Where is the immersion in that world?The key word is "compelling" and framing the right story in the right context that suits a vision. An epic scifi fantasy, it works on a structural level, no fat, only purposeful elements that propel and drive the story forward. It's effective screenwriting 101.

The problem with AVATAR detractors is that they sill insist on confusing internet fandom with GA. They see a lot of trendy AVATAR hatred online, and they simply assume that “nobody cared for AVATAR and its characters.” They parrot the same ole line of «OMG, those characters had no emotion at all” (again, from the vocal internet minority) and they convince themselves that the GA feels like that. And yet, I know plenty of people, actual moviegoers who don't fancy themselves critics that tell me that the film to them was not only an amazingly emotional journey, but an almost religious experience that moved them profoundly. Yeah, but that must've been the pretty colors and shiny surfaces, right? Edited July 17, 2014 by cochofles

[dashrendar44]

People post Titanic references and gifs all the time, Avatar is fairly rare. 

 

Ah you mean the influential Tumblr don't like Avatar. That influential zeitgeist tool that should have propelled Thor 2 into the 1B WW realm if you judge by the amount of stupid gifs/fangirls shipping/Idiotic Loki drawings about him getting pregnant with Thor's baby flooding all around...

 

You definetely don't live in the real world if you think a movie's WOM and real world impact is judged on the amount of gifs posted on the Internet...

[Cochofles]

Another funny thing: Cameron detractors, who,probably hated Titanic and were vocal bashers of it, are now using it as proof of AVATAR's supposed failure at ingraining itself into pop culture. They say that TITANIC is really a classic and iconic, in order to somehow diminish AVATAR. Quite amusing, if you ask me...

[Jack Nevada]

Cochofles mad now.

[Hatebox]

I have no horse in this race, but I would say as someone who greatly admires Cameron that I think it's a shame he decided to do another God knows how many sequels to Avatar than move onto something totally new. Avatar was a fine enough experience in the cinema but my interest in returning to that world and those characters is practically non-existent. I wonder how long it'll be before we get another non-Avatar Cameron film....

Edited July 17, 2014 by Hatebox