Fanboy Wars Thread: Personal Attacks not allowed | With Digital Fur Technology

[RandomCat]

Perhaps his family is German that moved to Sokovia?

 

So your saying the Avengers should take no responsibility for destruction ando injury they caused if it's in the pursuit of good, or defending a city, or a shadowy organization was willing to do worse? 

[4815162342]

48 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

So your saying the Avengers should take no responsibility for destruction ando injury they caused if it's in the pursuit of good, or defending a city, or a shadowy organization was willing to do worse? 

 

Well with regards to the claims and allegations made by General Thaddeus "The Hypocritical Thunderbolt" Ross, none of them can be laid at the "Avengers" feet.

 

New York was a SHIELD/US Government screwup that the Avengers fixed for them, before the World Council could overreact and nuke one of the largest cities in the world before a single army unit even deployed on-scene.

 

Sokovoia was a Tony/Banner screwup, so ok, blame them, but they acted independently from the Avengers. Furthermore, Tony and Banner were not acting as Iron Man or Hulk, but as two scientists in a scientific experiment. This was not a Hulk rampage or an Iron Man suit malfunction, but something hardly unique to an Avenger: Science, the thing countless people in the world practice.

 

Blaming Scarlet Witch for Lagos is the same as blaming a bomb squad for failing to disarm a bomb in time. She contained the blast and tried to remove it from the area, but lost control before she could complete it. It's tragic and sad, but not blameworthy at all.

Edited January 1, 2017 by 4815162342

[RandomCat]

13 minutes ago, 4815162342 said:

 

Well with regards to the claims and allegations made by General Thaddeus "The Hypocritical Thunderbolt" Ross, none of them can be laid at the "Avengers" feet.

 

New York was a SHIELD/US Government screwup that the Avengers fixed for them, before the World Council could overreact and nuke one of the largest cities in the world before a single army unit even deployed on-scene.

 

Sokovoia was a Tony/Banner screwup, so ok, blame them, but they acted independently from the Avengers. Furthermore, Tony and Banner were not acting as Iron Man or Hulk, but as two scientists in a scientific experiment. This was not a Hulk rampage or an Iron Man suit malfunction, but something hardly unique to an Avenger: Science, the thing countless people in the world practice.

 

Blaming Scarlet Witch for Lagos is the same as blaming a bomb squad for failing to disarm a bomb in time. She contained the blast and tried to remove it from the area, but lost control before she could complete it. It's tragic and sad, but not blameworthy at all.

 

I think it's the fine line between blame and responsibility. Like Scarlet Witch, she is responsible, she did the best she could, but a lot of people died because of her actions. She should own the responsibility because refusing to would be refusing to learn from it. Now blaming herself is a different matter, and that's on her character. I know personally I'd blame myself, even if less people died because of my actions, people still died.

 

And even if everything else isn't the Avenger's fault, that doesn't mean others don't find them responsible. Most everyone involved in these incidents are dead, leaving the Avengers the only ones standing to receive blame or anger, or anything really. We can argue that they aren't responsible, but let's be honest, the truth has little baring on the matter, and it's all about how an organization like the UN can look like they're doing something.

 

 

[WeneedtotalkaboutKevin]

Zack Snyder got trashed by two critically-acclaimed movie directors Mel Gibson and Ridley Scott. He must have felt hurt. To a director, the words of peers , directors in this case, carry more weight than the critics and general audience. And, the sad thing is he will have to go through all these once again when Justice League is out. The Snyder-bashing won't end even after he is retired.

 

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/content/ridley-scott-f-bombs-batman-vs-superman

 

 

[Gamora]

4 hours ago, PPZVGOS said:

But the most obvious absurdity about the whole premise of Civil War is that the civilian losses from New York (Avengers) Washington DC (CA: Winter Soldier) Sokovia (Ultron) and Lagos (Civil War) are deemed as unacceptable or as the fault of the Avengers themselves. Any collateral damage that occurred in the first Avengers movies completely pales into comparison with the magnitude of the threat, a full-scale alien invasion, led by an inter-dimensional Hitler and his army of monsters. Hell, it was SHIELD/USG that was willing to NUKE New York in order to contain the fallout. How was it acceptable for the government to turn the world's most important metropolis into radioactive wasteland, but is unacceptable if a few hundred/thousand people die in order to save the entire planet? The Washington events were 100% the fault of the USG and other allies who were financing SHIELD for decades and approved its programs. Cap & Widow in fact saved humanity one more time. The Sokovia disaster was the only one that could be blamed on the Avengers, namely Stark & Banner who created Ultron in the first place, even if unintentionally. The Avengers still cleaned-up in the end. The Lagos incident was more than minor, and even then, Scarlet Witch did the right thing because of the bomb had exploded in its original position then the losses would have been far greater. 

Is it absurd, though? Personally I've had many, many conversations over the past few months about this, and I'm with you on the Avengers not being to blame for the deaths, but plenty of people see it very differently (as evidenced in replies after you posted). I think that's my favourite thing about the movie, people are utterly convinced that their side is completely right and it's totally black and white, while having completely different opinions. If anything it shows how well done it was that people think the answer is obvious while not agreeing in the slightest.

 

2 hours ago, 4815162342 said:

 

Well with regards to the claims and allegations made by General Thaddeus "The Hypocritical Thunderbolt" Ross, none of them can be laid at the "Avengers" feet.

 

New York was a SHIELD/US Government screwup that the Avengers fixed for them, before the World Council could overreact and nuke one of the largest cities in the world before a single army unit even deployed on-scene.

 

Sokovoia was a Tony/Banner screwup, so ok, blame them, but they acted independently from the Avengers. Furthermore, Tony and Banner were not acting as Iron Man or Hulk, but as two scientists in a scientific experiment. This was not a Hulk rampage or an Iron Man suit malfunction, but something hardly unique to an Avenger: Science, the thing countless people in the world practice.

 

Blaming Scarlet Witch for Lagos is the same as blaming a bomb squad for failing to disarm a bomb in time. She contained the blast and tried to remove it from the area, but lost control before she could complete it. It's tragic and sad, but not blameworthy at all.

ITA, and it's also no coincidence that Ross was the face of the Accords, Mr You Guys Need To Take Responsibility (Meanwhile I Created The Abomination That Trashed Harlem And Now I'm Secretary of State. Yay Accountability). Dude has a history of wanting to control enhanced people, so bringing him back to push the law that would allow direct governing of them and using dehumanising language like calling Thor and Hulk megaton nukes was a stroke of brilliance, as well as tying TIH into the MCU a bit more. If I were an Avenger I'd refuse to sign and then wait for them to come grovelling to me for help when the next alien invasion that regular forces aren't equipped in the slightest to fight hits.

[Talkie]

2 hours ago, RandomJC said:

 

I think it's the fine line between blame and responsibility. Like Scarlet Witch, she is responsible, she did the best she could, but a lot of people died because of her actions. She should own the responsibility because refusing to would be refusing to learn from it. Now blaming herself is a different matter, and that's on her character. I know personally I'd blame myself, even if less people died because of my actions, people still died.

 

And even if everything else isn't the Avenger's fault, that doesn't mean others don't find them responsible. Most everyone involved in these incidents are dead, leaving the Avengers the only ones standing to receive blame or anger, or anything really. We can argue that they aren't responsible, but let's be honest, the truth has little baring on the matter, and it's all about how an organization like the UN can look like they're doing something.

 

 

 

Wanda was not responsible for the deaths in Lagos. Crossbones was. He was the one who set off the explosion. Wanda tried to prevent mass casualties on the ground, where there were hundreds of people as opposed to the eleven who died inside the building. Instead of being blamed for using her powers to contain and move the blast, Wanda should have been lauded for preventing even more death and destruction in what was essentially a no-win situation.

 

Furthermore, Crossbones would never have had the chance to set off his bomb if Cap hadn't frozen the instant he heard Bucky's name. It was the fact that Steve stood there gaping at Crossbones like an idiot that gave the bastard time to use his weapon. But we never saw Steve step up and take the heat off Wanda when Ross and the rest of the world laid the blame at her feet and branded her a menace.

[MCKillswitch123]

I don't understand how anyone can't see Cap's POV here. Yes, the Avengers should be accounted for their responsability in killing thousands. But if they hadn't stepped in, it wouldn't have been just thousands, it would've been the whole of mankind that would've perished. Simple.

 

Though I do still agree w/Stark, solely because of Ultron. That was entirely his fault, and the mere potential for threats like those to come out of an Avenger's mind is scary. That kind of potential should, in fact, be reigned in. But don't halt the Avengers from doing ANYTHING whatsoever unless permitted. The army doesn't pull Dr. Strangeloves and does whatever it feels like, it's also sent in by governments, and it too causes a lot of death and collateral damage in the attempt to bring "good".

 

Btw, just to counterpoint the whole "New York could've been nuked" thing, was the government actually aware that SHIELD wanted to nuke NYC? Wasn't that just the decision of SHIELD's board of directors, who acted on their own will to send a plane and nuke the city? And even if it was, I could totally see them hypocritting on the Avengers in a "get out of jail free card" to save their own face from taking any blame there. Human psychology, basically.

[DeeCee]

Why can't cinematic universes just be friends?

 

 

[RandomCat]

7 hours ago, Talkie said:

 

Wanda was not responsible for the deaths in Lagos. Crossbones was. He was the one who set off the explosion. Wanda tried to prevent mass casualties on the ground, where there were hundreds of people as opposed to the eleven who died inside the building. Instead of being blamed for using her powers to contain and move the blast, Wanda should have been lauded for preventing even more death and destruction in what was essentially a no-win situation.

 

Furthermore, Crossbones would never have had the chance to set off his bomb if Cap hadn't frozen the instant he heard Bucky's name. It was the fact that Steve stood there gaping at Crossbones like an idiot that gave the bastard time to use his weapon. But we never saw Steve step up and take the heat off Wanda when Ross and the rest of the world laid the blame at her feet and branded her a menace.

 

If Wanda had kept control of her powers longer she could have moved it higher and none would have died. Her lack of experience and control caused a lot of people to die. That doesn't mean Crossbones isn't responsible as well. And Cap does own his responsibility for having frozen in that moment. He shuts down Ross when he tries to bring up the incident. And let's be honest, even if Cap came out and said it was his fault, everyone would still blame her. Cap is the type of guy to say it's his fault no matter the circumstances and most anyone who knows his public persona wouldn't really believe him as responsible as an individual.

 

Edit: as a brief aside this entire conversation is actually interesting. I am not trying to win or shut anyone down, so apologies if I come off that way.

Edited January 1, 2017 by RandomJC

[4815162342]

13 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

 

If Wanda had kept control of her powers longer she could have moved it higher and none would have died. Her lack of experience and control caused a lot of people to die. That doesn't mean Crossbones isn't responsible as well. And Cap does own his responsibility for having frozen in that moment. He shuts down Ross when he tries to bring up the incident. And let's be honest, even if Cap came out and said it was his fault, everyone would still blame her. Cap is the type of guy to say it's his fault no matter the circumstances and most anyone who knows his public persona wouldn't really believe him as responsible as an individual.

 

Edit: as a brief aside this entire conversation is actually interesting. I am not trying to win or shut anyone down, so apologies if I come off that way.

 

But Wanda being unsuccessful really has zero logical basis for being a factor for the Sokovia accords. Her responsibility is the same as any regular first responder who tried to stop something and failed. Which is none. If a security guard confronts an active shooter and in the process of taking down the shooter the bullet passes through the shooter and hits someone else, we don't hold the guard legally responsible for the death or injury of the bystander. If a bomb squad tries to defuse a bomb but fails to do so, we don't hold the squad legally responsible for the deaths or injuries caused by the bomb. If she had done nothing, countless more would have died. She saved lives by containing and transporting the blast, she just wasn't able to save everyone.

 

Of all the examples used to justify the Accords, the only one with actual meat to it is Ultron, but that doesn't justify controlling the Avengers, it only justifies stringent controls on AI research, which is something any scientist could do, not just an Avenger.

 

 

The point is, the Accords had a valid point, to put some limits on the superhumans, but the justifications given in that scene were totally bunk.

[RandomCat]

29 minutes ago, 4815162342 said:

The point is, the Accords had a valid point, to put some limits on the superhumans, but the justifications given in that scene were totally bunk.

 

I agree 100%, but it's a governing organization that is trying to rationalize a decision it's made. At that point it becomes spin, and the UN is spinning it to be the Avengers fault, even if reality the events aren't, and we as observers of the events in full can know that. We can't assume the people in the world or UN are as knowledgeable of these events as we are.

[Talkie]

12 hours ago, RandomJC said:

 

If Wanda had kept control of her powers longer she could have moved it higher and none would have died. Her lack of experience and control caused a lot of people to die. That doesn't mean Crossbones isn't responsible as well. And Cap does own his responsibility for having frozen in that moment. He shuts down Ross when he tries to bring up the incident. And let's be honest, even if Cap came out and said it was his fault, everyone would still blame her. Cap is the type of guy to say it's his fault no matter the circumstances and most anyone who knows his public persona wouldn't really believe him as responsible as an individual.

 

Edit: as a brief aside this entire conversation is actually interesting. I am not trying to win or shut anyone down, so apologies if I come off that way.

 

I can't agree with you here. Wanda tried to save lives and in fact she saved dozens if not hundreds. She bore no responsibility for the deaths caused by the blast because she didn't set it off to begin with. 

 

As for Cap taking responsibility for allowing Crossbones to set off the explosion, that never happened. Stopping Ross from showing the photos of Sokovia and Lagos was not the same as explaining the real circumstances in which his inaction led to the disaster. (Wanda was responsible for the destruction of Sokovia and Hulk's deadly rampage in Johannesburg, however.) There is no excuse for Steve not making his involvement clear and no reason to assume he wouldn't be believed. He is Captain America, after all, a man whose honesty and moral probity are legendary (and mythical). He certainly should have tried to change the public's perception of Wanda as a dangerous weapon instead of leaving her vulnerable to being attacked out of fear. Cap only made Wanda's predicament infinitely worse by sending Clint to "free" her from the compound. She was clearly reluctant to leave, and ended up locked in a cell with a freaking shock collar around her neck like an animal for her efforts. Much good Steve Rogers' compassion did for her when all was said and done.

[Gamora]

11 minutes ago, Talkie said:

As for Cap taking responsibility for allowing Crossbones to set off the explosion, that never happened. Stopping Ross from showing the photos of Sokovia and Lagos was not the same as explaining the real circumstances in which his inaction led to the disaster. (Wanda was responsible for the destruction of Sokovia and Hulk's deadly rampage in Johannesburg, however.) There is no excuse for Steve not making his involvement clear and no reason to assume he wouldn't be believed. He is Captain America, after all, a man whose honesty and moral probity are legendary (and mythical). He certainly should have tried to change the public's perception of Wanda as a dangerous weapon instead of leaving her vulnerable to being attacked out of fear. Cap only made Wanda's predicament infinitely worse by sending Clint to "free" her from the compound. She was clearly reluctant to leave, and ended up locked in a cell with a freaking shock collar around her neck like an animal for her efforts. Much good Steve Rogers' compassion did for her when all was said and done.

 

Steve literally says what happened with Crossbones was on him to Wanda herself when they were talking in her bedroom. And the scene with Ross showing them all the footage wasn't meant to be about them all arguing over who bore exactly what responsibility over what, so I don't see why Steve would bring that up in that manner. There simply isn't enough shown to know what even happened with the publicity aftermath with Lagos, so blaming everything on Steve is a reach.

 

As is claiming he "forced" her to join the battle; last I checked he wasn't even there, Clint was. Wanda's powerful enough to not go if she doesn't want to, she was reluctant because of what Vision had been saying to her about people being scared of her, which is why she said that she can't control others' fear, only her own.

[robertman2]

I hope Kamala gets into the new Marvel vs Capcom. That'd be awesome. She'd be fun to play as.

[The Panda]

Deadpool is better than anything in the MCU or DCU.  Fight me.

[Talkie]

1 hour ago, La La Panda said:

Deadpool is better than anything in the MCU or DCU.  Fight me.

 

Go 'way, Panda, before you get hurt.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[IronJimbo]

9 hours ago, La La Panda said:

Deadpool is better than anything in the MCU or DCU.  Fight me.

 

Actually agree with this!

 

Have to say though against Jim Cams filmography it would place 8th.

[The Futurist]

11 hours ago, La La Panda said:

Deadpool is better than anything in the MCU or DCU.  Fight me.

 

If you re 11 yo, it probably works that way I guess.

 

 

[IronJimbo]

1 hour ago, The Futurist said:

 

If you re 11 yo, it probably works that way I guess.

I don't know what films count as the "DCU" but for the MCU.

 

Iron Man

The Incredible Hulk

Iron Man 2

Thor

Captain America: The First Avenger

Marvel's The Avengers

Iron Man 3

Thor: The Dark World

Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Guardians of the Galaxy

Avengers: Age of Ultron

Ant-Man

Captain America: Civil War

Doctor Strange

 

They peaked at Iron Man, it's a load of gutter trash quite honestly.

[Walt Disney]

4 hours ago, IronJimbo said:

I don't know what films count as the "DCU" but for the MCU.

 

Iron Man

The Incredible Hulk

Iron Man 2

Thor

Captain America: The First Avenger

Marvel's The Avengers

Iron Man 3

Thor: The Dark World

Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Guardians of the Galaxy

Avengers: Age of Ultron

Ant-Man

Captain America: Civil War

Doctor Strange

 

They peaked at Iron Man, it's a load of gutter trash quite honestly.

 

I'm going to have to disagree.