The Flash | June 16 2023 | Ezra Miller, Michael Keaton | We’re stoping the count at a Nice 69% RT (it’s 72% For Real) | Please Remember that Your Enjoyment Of The Film is Not Based On Others Opinions And To Be Nice To Each Other

[Porthos]

5 minutes ago, Porthos said:

Do you... 

 

Do you think the people who are "cancelling" folks on Twitter (which isn't a real thing, but besides the point) are down and groovy with Ezra Miller?

 

Because, if you do, I can assure you they very much are not.

 

Here's a not-so random example of what I am talking about here:

 

 

 

Now Jordan Maison has been consistently outspoken about this, but he is far from alone.  Hell, part of the reason there was backlash against Batgirl and by extension the other mixed reviewed DC slate of mid-to-late 2022 was Batgirl was cancelled but Flash was kept going.

 

There has been simmering discontent against Flash and Ezra Miller for months, and IMO the main reason it hasn't been fought out in the open is because Ezra Miller has been kept out of the news.

 

But proxy fights over this situation?  With mostly innocent bystanders?  Been still been going on.

 

====

 

Now will this ultimately matter in the end?  Well part of the reason why I said "cancelling on Twitter" isn't a real thing is because these situations are hella complex with dozens of factors and ultimately might not matter in the end.

 

But if WB, or anyone else here for that matter, thinks there won't be much controversy over Ezra Miller?  Well, early returns aren't exactly in bearing that out.

 

Ultimately might not matter.  Ultimately might be a tempest in a teapot and confined mostly to Twitter.  But this isn't going away.  Not yet, at least.

[Porthos]

7 minutes ago, Verrows said:

I'm talking about the studio, not other people.

 

 

But the thing is, these situations are complex with dozens of factors.  "Saying the wrong thing on Twitter while having the wrong politics" is rarely the reason someone got the boot.  Even in the case of Gina Carano, it was a straw that broke the camel's back.

 

If the studio thinks that this is all going away?

 

Well, they'll find out in short order that it isn't.

 

Might not matter, as I said.  But that just shows my overall point: Cancel Culture isn't actually real.  Not as it's popularly seen, at any rate.

[Verrows]

3 minutes ago, Porthos said:

 

But the thing is, these situations are complex with dozens of factors.  "Saying the wrong thing on Twitter while having the wrong politics" is rarely the reason someone got the boot.  Even in the case of Gina Carano, it was a straw that broke the camel's back.

 

If the studio thinks that this is all going away?

 

Well, they'll find out in short order that it isn't.

 

Might not matter, as I said.  But that just shows my overall point: Cancel Culture isn't actually real.  Not as it's popularly seen, at any rate.

What were Carano's transgressions before her problematic twitter comments? (Genuine question, not a challenge. Admittedly I barely pay attention to this stuff so I probably shouldn't have commented on the matter in the first place, and I usually avoid it)

 

Also, we're clearly seeing things very differently as far as cancel culture. Though I can see your point that it's overblown to a degree, there seems to be several examples of companies making decisions on personnel due solely to the court of public opinion.

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Verrows

[Macleod]

All that will matter to the studio is MONAAAAYYY, of course.  As the studio insiders note about The Rock/Black Adam situation, "the numbers just weren't there" to justify Johnson's ego-tastic demands.  If THE FLASH hits with audiences and it even breaks even in our fractured Theatrical climate, it will be seen as win.  Keaton's Batman will surely help...somewhat, which is, I suspect, why they even brought back Keaton in the first place, because the studio wasn't 100% convinced a FLASH solo with Miller would land with audiences.  We'll see...  I think a more likely reason that it might fail would simply be due to current audience ambivalence about the DC Universe on screen. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Macleod

[Eric is Quiet]

Cancel culture isn't real. This is especially true when it comes to a Hollywood that is a lot more conservative than people like to admit. Even the two most arguable "canceled by Twitter" examples people like to use were extreme, indefensible garbage and were already given to people known for being very problematic and very tough to work with. And honestly, if you're going to defend Roseanne's racism or Gina Carano equating being a Republican to a Jew in Nazi Germany...just shut up. Even James Gunn's firing was more just because Disney was trying to buy Rupert Murdoch's movie studio at that time and the Gunn stuff was started by one of Murdoch's garbage alt-right Pizzagate buddies. If Disney wasn't focused on the Fox deal, those tweets would have blown over and we would have gotten Guardians 3 a couple years earlier.

 

As for the topic at hand, Ezra staying is awful and terrible, but this is sadly Hollywood, they're always about the money, and the average audience member, whether we like it or not, doesn't care about any scandals or people who are #problematic. Again, whether that's a good thing is up to you. And frankly, I'm not optimistic The Flash will be a hit anyways, so this "why are they keeping them on?" drama really won't mean much in the end.

[Porthos]

33 minutes ago, Verrows said:

What were Carano's transgressions before her problematic twitter comments? (Genuine question, not a challenge. Admittedly I barely pay attention to this stuff so I probably shouldn't have commented on the matter in the first place, and I usually avoid it)

 

Well, her ultimate transgression was not being very important to Disney/Lucasfilm in the grand scheme of things.  She was an actress with a small-to-medium sized role, with limited range. 

 

If you want to try to figure out a lot of double and triple standards in Hollywood, looking at the power dynamics at play goes a loooooong way to squaring the circle.

 

But the main thing she had done was get into a dustup with Pedro Pascal over trans issues.  I won't go as far as to say they were feuding or anything like that, as 1] I don't think they were and 2] that's more gossip columnist stuff. But I do know that when Gina Carano first started issuing what she thought were harmless comments about trans issues (and to be clear, they weren't), Pedro Pascal pulled her aside and told her how hurtful those kinds of comments could be (Pedro's sister is trans so it's very personal for him).

 

Apparently it didn't take.

 

Around this time or shortly soon after, Gina Carano fell into the orbit of the alt-right and during the COVID "lockdowns"* pretty much went down the Red Pill Rabbit Hole.

* Weren't really lockdowns, but I'll just use the colloquial version of the term.

 

From what I can gather either Lucasfilm or Disney directly told her to knock it off and pull back on her social media presence.

 

She... Did the opposite of that.

 

In addition to all of this for around four to six months there was simmering discontent in the fanbase over her increasingly erratic behavior.  Because we were in a production freeze, there wasn't much actual Hollywood reporting going on; but there was a sense that Gina's increasingly erratic behavior was going to get her into trouble.  In fact, I mentioned that the moment the Trades started to comment on this, she'd be tossed overboard.

 

Which is exactly what happened as a few hours after one of the Trades talked about Gina's latest outburst on Twitter, she was toast.

 

As, I said, ultimately: She wasn't worth headaches to Lucasfilm/Disney AND she had alienated a major cast member.  She also likely directly disobeyed a mandate to knock it off, and well found out about what happens after fucking around.

 

Is it "fair" she was 'fired'/not hired for future projects when others who have had 'worse' transgressions haven't?

 

Well, as I said at the top:

 

Quote

 If you want to try to figure out a lot of double and triple standards in Hollywood, looking at the power dynamics at play goes a loooooong way to squaring the circle. 

 

I don't know if there were other issues at play and it's not fair to anyone involved for me to speculate on them, but the above is what I either know to have been reported or is fairly logical to deduce.

 

(Also, frankly, if she had more range as an actress, she might have had more rope — but, well, see the type of movies she's in now and draw your own conclusions)

Edited January 4, 2023 by Porthos

[TMP]

8 minutes ago, 3RIC said:

Cancel culture isn't real. This is especially true when it comes to a Hollywood that is a lot more conservative than people like to admit. Even the two most arguable "canceled by Twitter" examples people like to use were extreme, indefensible garbage and were already given to people known for being very problematic and very tough to work with. And honestly, if you're going to defend Roseanne's racism or Gina Carano equating being a Republican to a Jew in Nazi Germany...just shut up. Even James Gunn's firing was more just because Disney was trying to buy Rupert Murdoch's movie studio at that time and the Gunn stuff was started by one of Murdoch's garbage alt-right Pizzagate buddies. If Disney wasn't focused on the Fox deal, those tweets would have blown over and we would have gotten Guardians 3 a couple years earlier.

 

As for the topic at hand, Ezra staying is awful and terrible, but this is sadly Hollywood, they're always about the money, and the average audience member, whether we like it or not, doesn't care about any scandals or people who are #problematic. Again, whether that's a good thing is up to you. And frankly, I'm not optimistic The Flash will be a hit anyways, so this "why are they keeping them on?" drama really won't mean much in the end.

Given the rate of superhero fatigue right now, i'd be surprised if we even got more than a handful of dc films in the gunn reboot before dc pivots back to nothing but batman films every few years 

[Verrows]

47 minutes ago, Porthos said:

 

Well, her ultimate transgression was not being very important to Disney/Lucasfilm in the grand scheme of things.  She was an actress with a small-to-medium sized role, with limited range. 

 

If you want to try to figure out a lot of double and triple standards in Hollywood, looking at the power dynamics at play goes a loooooong way to squaring the circle.

 

But the main thing she had done was get into a dustup with Pedro Pascal over trans issues.  I won't go as far as to say they were feuding or anything like that, as 1] I don't think they were and 2] that's more gossip columnist stuff. But I do know that when Gina Carano first started issuing what she thought were harmless comments about trans issues (and to be clear, they weren't), Pedro Pascal pulled her aside and told her how hurtful those kinds of comments could be (Pedro's sister is trans so it's very personal for him).

 

Apparently it didn't take.

 

Around this time or shortly soon after, Gina Carano fell into the orbit of the alt-right and during the COVID "lockdowns"* pretty much went down the Red Pill Rabbit Hole.

* Weren't really lockdowns, but I'll just use the colloquial version of the term.

 

From what I can gather either Lucasfilm or Disney directly told her to knock it off and pull back on her social media presence.

 

She... Did the opposite of that.

 

In addition to all of this for around four to six months there was simmering discontent in the fanbase over her increasingly erratic behavior.  Because we were in a production freeze, there wasn't much actual Hollywood reporting going on; but there was a sense that Gina's increasingly erratic behavior was going to get her into trouble.  In fact, I mentioned that the moment the Trades started to comment on this, she'd be tossed overboard.

 

Which is exactly what happened as a few hours after one of the Trades talked about Gina's latest outburst on Twitter, she was toast.

 

As, I said, ultimately: She wasn't worth headaches to Lucasfilm/Disney AND she had alienated a major cast member.  She also likely directly disobeyed a mandate to knock it off, and well found out about what happens after fucking around.

 

Is it "fair" she was 'fired'/not hired for future projects when others who have had 'worse' transgressions haven't?

 

Well, as I said at the top:

 

 

I don't know if there were other issues at play and it's not fair to anyone involved for me to speculate on them, but the above is what I either know to have been reported or is fairly logical to deduce.

 

(Also, frankly, if she had more range as an actress, she might have had more rope — but, well, see the type of movies she's in now and draw your own conclusions)

Thanks for the well thought out response. As I said I usually don't even pay attention to this petty stuff, but the Ezra thing really irked me because of just how egregious his actions are. And even that wouldn't faze me if not for the double standard. But like you said, that has everything to do with the power dynamics in place I guess.

 

Anyway I'm already over it, so, moving on.

[Porthos]

25 minutes ago, Verrows said:

Thanks for the well thought out response. As I said I usually don't even pay attention to this petty stuff, but the Ezra thing really irked me because of just how egregious his actions are. And even that wouldn't faze me if not for the double standard. But like you said, that has everything to do with the power dynamics in place I guess.

 

Anyway I'm already over it, so, moving on.

 

To also add: In the case of Ezra, WB had already sunk well over $200m into the project before the worst news came out (part of the power dynamics at play) and they were the central actor, so a recast was going to be very difficult (the other part of the power dynamics).

 

A studio might take a loss and not release a mid-level budgeted movie like Batgirl (which was still pretty damn unprecedented and happened in large part thanks to a studio ownership transfer).  But something like Flash? It'd have to be a REALLY BAD situation to redo it/junk it, especially if the actual quality of the movie wasn't in question.   Even something like Solo which was "just" reshooting 90% of a movie because TPTB didn't like what they saw was fairly unprecedented... And, well, it didn't exactly work out anyway.

 

(know you said you already moved on, but wanted to highlight the uniqueness of this situation as another reason why it did not follow the pattern of other projects that got radically reworked/junked entirely)

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Porthos

[Ozymandias]

Gina Carano was given many chances, all she had to do was get off twitter.  It takes a special kind of idiot to kicked off a Star Wars gig.

 

Oh and just lol if this fool gets to stay after beating up women and just being an obnoxious shithead in general.

[excel1]

Cancel culture has 1000% been real for many people, but a lot of them deserved. The dynamic nobody talks about is how much fame/hype/popularity was pretty much manufactured by media members hence when the public turns on said celebrity, everyone abandons ship and realizes there was never really much there to begin. Chrissy Teigen is a PRIME example. She was extremely commonly referenced Twitter personality during the mid 2010s and throughout DT presidency. She is then exposed as horrendously abusive bully and self-righteous hypocrite, and suddenly everyone turns on her. Now she's basically a no-one. Keeps a much lower profile and has a lot less clout.

 

Ezra Miller isn't being "canceled". People are much more understanding of mental health issues these days, plus, Ezra was not particularly famous before hand. Some of you should have been alive during the pre-social media tabloid era. Numerous A-list celebs had physical altercations with photographers that didn't receive much attention. The most famous probably being Britney Spears umbrella assault, and of course, nothing happened. Low key, I don't think many members of the public blamed them given how intrusive the paparazzi were.

 

Miller and this film will be 100% fine if quality and marketing deliver, ends of story.  

Edited January 5, 2023 by excel1

[Macleod]

Gosh darnit @excel1, much to my own surprise, I really am coming around to your point of view on many topics, lately! 

[AnDr3s]

5 hours ago, keysersoze123 said:

 

hmmm. 

[Sheldon Cr]

7 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

Gina Carano was given many chances, all she had to do was get off twitter.  It takes a special kind of idiot to kicked off a Star Wars gig.

 

Oh and just lol if this fool gets to stay after beating up women and just being an obnoxious shithead in general.

I dont know brother Ozy she should have freedom of speech.. Disney seems to be if your against the agenda your out.  If you dont stand up for morals where do we go from there. Im sort of proud she knew where it was going but didnt make anyone push her into the box. Money isnt everything in my opinion.

[Sheldon Cr]

7 hours ago, excel1 said:

Cancel culture has 1000% been real for many people, but a lot of them deserved. The dynamic nobody talks about is how much fame/hype/popularity was pretty much manufactured by media members hence when the public turns on said celebrity, everyone abandons ship and realizes there was never really much there to begin. Chrissy Teigen is a PRIME example. She was extremely commonly referenced Twitter personality during the mid 2010s and throughout DT presidency. She is then exposed as horrendously abusive bully and self-righteous hypocrite, and suddenly everyone turns on her. Now she's basically a no-one. Keeps a much lower profile and has a lot less clout.

 

Ezra Miller isn't being "canceled". People are much more understanding of mental health issues these days, plus, Ezra was not particularly famous before hand. Some of you should have been alive during the pre-social media tabloid era. Numerous A-list celebs had physical altercations with photographers that didn't receive much attention. The most famous probably being Britney Spears umbrella assault, and of course, nothing happened. Low key, I don't think many members of the public blamed them given how intrusive the paparazzi were.

 

Miller and this film will be 100% fine if quality and marketing deliver, ends of story.  

 

If they cancel people for much less Ezra should be cancelled. Its called know people  my friend and perhaps having things on some producers. No way all that happens in Hawaii and you should still be the lead of  strong IP like Flash.

 

And seems most folks agree, you can even use the Brandon Lee Crow technology and replace him and it would cost a few millions..  I agree with Campea and others on youtube. This wont go over well when Flash comes out. I will be boycotting this one, cant support films where so much things happened with the lead and Im pretty sure Grant or an unknown could take over from Ezra.  Gunn may be real bad for DC.. 

 

 

Who else thinks its a big misfire to fire Henry Cavil Decision for yet another reboot... What is going on here! Didnt they just give the man the go to start MOS 2 to a point where he left the Witcher?

 

 

....Something Wicked Cometh for DC and the name...is GUNN

Edited January 5, 2023 by Sheldon Cr
Just updating

[JWR]

13 hours ago, Porthos said:

 

Here's a not-so random example of what I am talking about here:

 

 

 

Now Jordan Maison has been consistently outspoken about this, but he is far from alone.  Hell, part of the reason there was backlash against Batgirl and by extension the other mixed reviewed DC slate of mid-to-late 2022 was Batgirl was cancelled but Flash was kept going.

 

There has been simmering discontent against Flash and Ezra Miller for months, and IMO the main reason it hasn't been fought out in the open is because Ezra Miller has been kept out of the news.

 

But proxy fights over this situation?  With mostly innocent bystanders?  Been still been going on.

 

====

 

Now will this ultimately matter in the end?  Well part of the reason why I said "cancelling on Twitter" isn't a real thing is because these situations are hella complex with dozens of factors and ultimately might not matter in the end.

 

But if WB, or anyone else here for that matter, thinks there won't be much controversy over Ezra Miller?  Well, early returns aren't exactly in bearing that out.

 

Ultimately might not matter.  Ultimately might be a tempest in a teapot and confined mostly to Twitter.  But this isn't going away.  Not yet, at least.

 

Keeping Miller insures that it never goes away.

[Sheldon Cr]

25 minutes ago, JWR said:

 

Keeping Miller insures that it never goes away.

I can see it being an instant flop. As there are petitions online to remove that fool. It cost nearly 250Mil.  Imagine if it opens to 30m or less. I'd do the slight expensive Crow Technology thats vastly been improved on nowadays and digitally replace him..  Doing reshoots when necessary.

[Krissykins]

When are we seeing a trailer? I can’t even picture what this film looks like lol

[4815162342]

3 hours ago, Sheldon Cr said:

I dont know brother Ozy she should have freedom of speech.. Disney seems to be if your against the agenda your out.  If you dont stand up for morals where do we go from there. Im sort of proud she knew where it was going but didnt make anyone push her into the box. Money isnt everything in my opinion.

 

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences. She got into loggerheads with the star of the show and spewed hateful and harmful content, even after being warned off by her employer.

 

She fucked around and found out.

[JWR]

1 hour ago, Sheldon Cr said:

I can see it being an instant flop. As there are petitions online to remove that fool. It cost nearly 250Mil.  Imagine if it opens to 30m or less. I'd do the slight expensive Crow Technology thats vastly been improved on nowadays and digitally replace him..  Doing reshoots when necessary.

 

If it flops, it'll mostly be due to the DC brand not being a strong pull and maybe Miller's antics if it gets worse or WB is unable to keep that from the general public.