Avatar: The Way of Water | 16 DEC 2022 | Don't worry guys, critics like it

[IronJimbo]

5 minutes ago, Alexdube said:

 

I'll concede it's probably technically correct to say "Disney owns Avatar", although how much do you really "own" an IP if another party has creative control? I'd still be curious to see the detail of their arrangement

No it's not technically correct to say Disney owns Avatar, as they don't.

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

14 minutes ago, Alexdube said:

 

I'll concede it's probably technically correct to say "Disney owns Avatar", although how much do you really "own" an IP if another party has creative control? I'd still be curious to see the detail of their arrangement

 

Kevin Feige has creative control over everything Marvel (except games) FYI.

 

And mind you me saying that is my guess on the details. I would think Disney would prefer all things Avatar be helmed by Cameron the same way they'd prefer all things Marvel be helmed by Feige.

 

To see details of the arrangement you'd have to be high level exec at TWDC.

[JustLurking]

7 hours ago, Alexdube said:

 

Fair enough, I haven't researched the topic more than that. My "source" was the same as the one cited by the New York Times, you should tell them that also

‘Avatar: The Way of Water’: What to Know Before Watching - The New York Times (nytimes.com) (September 9)

I'll be extremely surprised if any theater around me offers that option. I would take it gladly, but I just don't expect it. It'll probably be my first time watching a film in 3D since I started wearing glasses, too, so I just hope it's not too uncomfortable.

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

11 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

No it's not technically correct to say Disney owns Avatar, as they don't.

 

I would be VERY HAPPY to see some evidence that they do not. Care to refute what I posted in the previous page?

 

All evidence points that Disney does own Avatar through 20th Century.

[Alexdube]

1 hour ago, AnotherDayAnotherDollar said:

 

Kevin Feige has creative control over everything Marvel (except games) FYI.

 

And mind you me saying that is my guess on the details. I would think Disney would prefer all things Avatar be helmed by Cameron the same way they'd prefer all things Marvel be helmed by Feige.

 

To see details of the arrangement you'd have to be high level exec at TWDC.

 

Difference is Feige had nothing to do with the creation of Marvel so I don't think this is a 1 to 1 comparison. And if I'm Cameron after I made a movie like Titanic, I know any studio will fight over working with me, so I can easily negotiate my terms. I imagine he would still have to make some form of concession if Fox is going to pay the bills and own all the risk, but would he put himself in a position where the studio just keeps him in control because they like him? Could they easily boot him off and replace with somebody else? I can't imagine if Fox had such a strong hold on the IP they would have waited 13 years for a sequel to the highest grossing movie of all time.

 

At this point I think the only answer that would satisfy me would have to be from an industry expert or Cameron himself 

[SnokesLegs]

3 hours ago, JustLurking said:

It'll probably be my first time watching a film in 3D since I started wearing glasses, too, so I just hope it's not too uncomfortable.

It’s not uncomfortable thankfully, I normally wear contacts but on the odd occasion where I’ve needed to take them out and wear my glasses, I’ve found that the 3D specs fit comfortably over my existing glasses.

[IronJimbo]

4 hours ago, AnotherDayAnotherDollar said:

 

I would be VERY HAPPY to see some evidence that they do not. Care to refute what I posted in the previous page?

 

All evidence points that Disney does own Avatar through 20th Century.

Jim & Lightstorm got sued in this, not Fox. You're posting evidence against what you're saying.

[Deuce66]

In terms of the ownership debate I'm leaning towards 20th Century Studios. Look at the back of the most recent comic book Avatar: Adapt or Die #5

 

https://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/3010-228/Avatar-Adapt-or-Die-5#prettyPhoto[3010-228]/1/

 

at the bottom of the pic

 

Avatar - 2022 - 20th Century Studios

James Cameron's Avatar is a trademark of 20th Century Studios. All Rights Reserved

 

There is no mention of Lightstorm Entertainment or any other James Cameron owned company that would indicate sole proprietorship of the Avatar IP/Brand. It's clear that 20th Century has a stake in Avatar, the question is whether it's a controlling interest. There's no evidence yet that anything Avatar related gets done without James Cameron's approval. If and when that happens then we'll get the true answer. I would think Disney/20th Century would be exploiting this IP to the max, we'll see in the years in that follow if it turns into Star Wars or Marvel or remains tightly controlled. 

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Deuce66

[hw64]

8 hours ago, Cap said:

Moreover, I told Porthos that I am officially old. I have been part of an online and convention going fandom for 20 years. And in that 20 years, I can count on my hand the amount of occasions that I have run into Avatar fans. It’s like I said it way long ago during comic con. There is no cosplay. There is no fanfiction. There’s no fanart. There is no fan cam. Does not have a large online presence of people who could come out of the woodwork for this. As some others have said, we almost have to treat this like an original movie. And well I know that people are really excited cause Top Gun Only proved there is a way for an old property to make a butt load of money, there’s also as many examples of ones that haven’t. So I’d be very interested to see how this plays out, and how they are going to build real hype for the movie outside of like film Twitter, or outside of this forum.

 

Have you considered that 2 decades of pop culture fandom may have left you out of touch with general moviegoing audiences?

 

The last decade or more of the box office seems to have led certain people — especially those that are heavily into pop culture fandom themselves — to believe that fan-driven franchise movies are the only avenue to big box office success these days, but that has never been the case. Top Gun: Maverick has reaffirmed that fact this year, but it's hardly the only example: franchises like James Bond, Jurassic Park and Fast & Furious also prove that massive box office success is not predicated on a big pop culture fandom.

 

But the most important thing to note by far is that Avatar itself did not find its huge success through fandom, which should tell you where the audience for Avatar 2 is going to come from and why a lack of pop culture fandom is a complete non-issue for Avatar 2. Avatar 2's success through non-fandom means isn't a point of wild speculation based off of the extreme outlier that Top Gun: Maverick has been, it's merely looking at the precedent that Avatar itself set.

 

The idea that we "almost have to treat this like an original movie" because the people who will make up the audience for Avatar 2 aren't attending Comic-Con dressed up as Na'vi or screaming on Twitter about how excited they are — and therefore aren't easily visible or measurable — is similarly silly, because again it's predicated on the assumption that a lack of fandom interest for Avatar means that the audience for Avatar 2 doesn't currently exist. The audience does exist, it's just a silent audience, largely unrepresented on the internet and in fandom circles, to whom Avatar was just a great movie (as it should be) and not an obsession which defines a big part of their lives.

 

So all this incessant hand-wringing over these fandom events like Comic-Con and D23 is extremely misguided, in my opinion. The fact that the footage has gotten such positive reactions from the types of people that attend D23 — who are not the intended main target audience for Avatar 2 — can only be a good sign.

[Alexdube]

Quote

James Cameron's Avatar is a trademark of 20th Century Studios

 

can't ignore the irony in that trademark

[Reddroast]

9 hours ago, Cap said:

Absolutely. And I also feel like this is gonna be a really interesting couple months because expectations are so different. Like what if it does 75 million on opening weekend. Is that good or is that bad? I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad number, but I know that they’d be some people who would think the sky was falling. So what people are expecting out of this verse what’s gonna actually happen, first how everyone processes the information we get, is gonna be interesting. I don’t have an answer for it. I don’t have really any take on this movie and what it’s gonna do at the box office other than I just don’t think it’s as popular as people think it is.

I'd feel that the second weekend is more important. If the drop is massive then we have something really bad

[XXRDJisDoctorDoom]

5 minutes ago, Reddroast said:

I'd feel that the second weekend is more important. If the drop is massive then we have something really bad

 

Christmas Eve is the 2nd Saturday, so the weekend drop will be bigger than normal by default. 

[Deuce66]

[4815162342]

1 hour ago, Deuce66 said:

In terms of the ownership debate I'm leaning towards 20th Century Studios. Look at the back of the most recent comic book Avatar: Adapt or Die #5

 

https://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/3010-228/Avatar-Adapt-or-Die-5#prettyPhoto[3010-228]/1/

 

at the bottom of the pic

 

Avatar - 2022 - 20th Century Studios

James Cameron's Avatar is a trademark of 20th Century Studios. All Rights Reserved

 

There is no mention of Lightstorm Entertainment or any other James Cameron owned company that would indicate sole proprietorship of the Avatar IP/Brand. It's clear that 20th Century has a stake in Avatar, the question is whether it's a controlling interest. There's no evidence yet that anything Avatar related gets done without James Cameron's approval. If and when that happens then we'll get the true answer. I would think Disney/20th Century would be exploiting this IP to the max, we'll see in the years in that follow if it turns into Star Wars or Marvel or remains tightly controlled. 

 

 

 

 

I just want to clarify that trademark and copyright are not the same thing. 20th Century Studios holding the trademark with respect to derivative material related to the 2009 film and subsequent films, such as the logo, etc., is not determinative that it owns the copyright to Avatar and derivative works (as opposed to a license).

 

For example, JK Rowling owns the copyright to Harry Potter. But Warner Bros. almost certainly holds the trademark for material connected to the HP films, FB films, etc.

 

 

The subsequent picture you have indicates that 20th Century has the copyright most likely to that specific toy/model, since the back of the comic material does not have a copyright symbol, just a trademark notation.

Edited September 11, 2022 by 4815162342

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

4 hours ago, IronJimbo said:

Jim & Lightstorm got sued in this, not Fox. You're posting evidence against what you're saying.

 

If that's your "evidence" then it's pretty weak.

 

The court document specifically says the rights were transferred to 20th Century. 20th Century has also been named in lawsuits because of Avatar and all C and TM for all products in all media are all 20th Century.

 

20th Century owns the IP. It's pretty obvious. 

 

4 hours ago, Deuce66 said:

In terms of the ownership debate I'm leaning towards 20th Century Studios. Look at the back of the most recent comic book Avatar: Adapt or Die #5

 

https://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/3010-228/Avatar-Adapt-or-Die-5#prettyPhoto[3010-228]/1/

 

at the bottom of the pic

 

Avatar - 2022 - 20th Century Studios

James Cameron's Avatar is a trademark of 20th Century Studios. All Rights Reserved

 

There is no mention of Lightstorm Entertainment or any other James Cameron owned company that would indicate sole proprietorship of the Avatar IP/Brand. It's clear that 20th Century has a stake in Avatar, the question is whether it's a controlling interest. There's no evidence yet that anything Avatar related gets done without James Cameron's approval. If and when that happens then we'll get the true answer. I would think Disney/20th Century would be exploiting this IP to the max, we'll see in the years in that follow if it turns into Star Wars or Marvel or remains tightly controlled. 

 

 

 

 

Correct. You're missing something though. The bottom says 

AvatarⒸ 2022 20th Century Studios

James Cameron's Avatar is a trademark of 20th Century Studios. All Rights Reserved

 

This is true of EVERY single product in EVERY single piece of media. Videogames, comic books, theme parks, exhibit, novels, etc etc etc. Every single one of them says the below or something similar:

 

©2022 20th Century Studios. JAMES CAMERON'S AVATAR is a trademark of 20th Century Studios. All Rights Reserved.

 

If Cameron had any claim whatsoever we'd see something like we see for Wizarding World or for Spider-Man movies which shows the below or something similar:

 

TM & © WBEI. WIZARDING WORLD Publishing and Theatrical Stage Rights © J.K. Rowling.

© 2021 SONY PICTURES DIGITAL PRODUCTIONS INC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
MARVEL AND ALL RELATED CHARACTER NAMES: © & ™ 2021 MARVEL

 

But we don't because the IP owner is solely 20th Century. We know the licensor (i.e. the IP owner) for th merch has been Fox.

 

https://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/52860-mattel-is-master-toy-licensee-for-camerons-avatar

 

Quote

Twentieth Century Fox Licensing & Merchandising (Fox L&M) has selected Mattel, Inc. to develop a toy line inspired by one of the most anticipated films of the year — James Cameron’s Avatar. 

 

 

C and TM indicates ownership. Anything else anyone is saying is hopes and dreams. I ask anyone to find anything on Avatar that gives the IP C and TM to ANYONE besides 20th Century.

 

2 hours ago, 4815162342 said:

 

I just want to clarify that trademark and copyright are not the same thing. 20th Century Studios holding the trademark with respect to derivative material related to the 2009 film and subsequent films, such as the logo, etc., is not determinative that it owns the copyright to Avatar and derivative works (as opposed to a license).

 

For example, JK Rowling owns the copyright to Harry Potter. But Warner Bros. almost certainly holds the trademark for material connected to the HP films, FB films, etc.

 

 

The subsequent picture you have indicates that 20th Century has the copyright most likely to that specific toy/model, since the back of the comic material does not have a copyright symbol, just a trademark notation.

 

20th owns the copyright and trademark. Warner's ownership of Potter is split.

 

https://www.avatar.com/ is the website for the franchise. On the bottom you see the copyright and trademark owner. It also has links to TOS, Privacy Policy etc in line with other sites owned by Disney (i.e. marvel.com, starwars.com, disney.com, etc). If you go to a random licensed game by Disney (i.e. marvelstrikeforce.com then you'll see that site is owned by the 3rd party since they own the software for the license).

 

The Mercedes partnership shows © 2021 20th Century Studios | © 2021 Mercedes-Benz. 

 

Mercedes owns part of the copyright for that product as is the case on a piece of licensed property. The other copyright claim is the 20th, the IP owner.

 

I have looked for quite awhile for any piece of property that has copyright and/or trademark on this franchise for anything but 20th Century. I never found it. I would be happy to see someone provide some evidence to the contrary.

  

6 hours ago, Alexdube said:

 

Difference is Feige had nothing to do with the creation of Marvel so I don't think this is a 1 to 1 comparison. And if I'm Cameron after I made a movie like Titanic, I know any studio will fight over working with me, so I can easily negotiate my terms. I imagine he would still have to make some form of concession if Fox is going to pay the bills and own all the risk, but would he put himself in a position where the studio just keeps him in control because they like him? Could they easily boot him off and replace with somebody else? I can't imagine if Fox had such a strong hold on the IP they would have waited 13 years for a sequel to the highest grossing movie of all time.

 

At this point I think the only answer that would satisfy me would have to be from an industry expert or Cameron himself 

 

That also depends on the contract he had for Titanic. No one believed Titanic and that's why Fox split the risk with Paramount. Fox could easily have put a rights of first refusal for Jimbo's next movie on that contract, but that's hearsay on my part. We don't know. As far as if 20th could boot him off and replace him I also don't know because Jim could have asked for creative control until he died to transfer the rights or something. 

 

What I do know is that Cameron could not go to Warner Brother or Netflix and create a new movie or show. I do know that owning the Copyright and Trademark for something = you own the IP.

 

It's fair for you to hold whatever standard you need. Chances are you won't get that though because it'll never come up on conversations.

Edited September 11, 2022 by AnotherDayAnotherDollar

[IronJimbo]

3 hours ago, AnotherDayAnotherDollar said:

 

If that's your "evidence" then it's pretty weak.

 

The court document specifically says the rights were transferred to 20th Century. 20th Century has also been named in lawsuits because of Avatar and all C and TM for all products in all media are all 20th Century.

 

20th Century owns the IP. It's pretty obvious. 

 

 

Correct. You're missing something though. The bottom says 

AvatarⒸ 2022 20th Century Studios

James Cameron's Avatar is a trademark of 20th Century Studios. All Rights Reserved

 

This is true of EVERY single product in EVERY single piece of media. Videogames, comic books, theme parks, exhibit, novels, etc etc etc. Every single one of them says the below or something similar:

 

©2022 20th Century Studios. JAMES CAMERON'S AVATAR is a trademark of 20th Century Studios. All Rights Reserved.

 

If Cameron had any claim whatsoever we'd see something like we see for Wizarding World or for Spider-Man movies which shows the below or something similar:

 

TM & © WBEI. WIZARDING WORLD Publishing and Theatrical Stage Rights © J.K. Rowling.

© 2021 SONY PICTURES DIGITAL PRODUCTIONS INC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
MARVEL AND ALL RELATED CHARACTER NAMES: © & ™ 2021 MARVEL

 

But we don't because the IP owner is solely 20th Century. We know the licensor (i.e. the IP owner) for th merch has been Fox.

 

https://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/52860-mattel-is-master-toy-licensee-for-camerons-avatar

 

 

 

C and TM indicates ownership. Anything else anyone is saying is hopes and dreams. I ask anyone to find anything on Avatar that gives the IP C and TM to ANYONE besides 20th Century.

 

 

20th owns the copyright and trademark. Warner's ownership of Potter is split.

 

https://www.avatar.com/ is the website for the franchise. On the bottom you see the copyright and trademark owner. It also has links to TOS, Privacy Policy etc in line with other sites owned by Disney (i.e. marvel.com, starwars.com, disney.com, etc). If you go to a random licensed game by Disney (i.e. marvelstrikeforce.com then you'll see that site is owned by the 3rd party since they own the software for the license).

 

The Mercedes partnership shows © 2021 20th Century Studios | © 2021 Mercedes-Benz. 

 

Mercedes owns part of the copyright for that product as is the case on a piece of licensed property. The other copyright claim is the 20th, the IP owner.

 

I have looked for quite awhile for any piece of property that has copyright and/or trademark on this franchise for anything but 20th Century. I never found it. I would be happy to see someone provide some evidence to the contrary.

  

 

That also depends on the contract he had for Titanic. No one believed Titanic and that's why Fox split the risk with Paramount. Fox could easily have put a rights of first refusal for Jimbo's next movie on that contract, but that's hearsay on my part. We don't know. As far as if 20th could boot him off and replace him I also don't know because Jim could have asked for creative control until he died to transfer the rights or something. 

 

What I do know is that Cameron could not go to Warner Brother or Netflix and create a new movie or show. I do know that owning the Copyright and Trademark for something = you own the IP.

 

It's fair for you to hold whatever standard you need. Chances are you won't get that though because it'll never come up on conversations.

 

Where's JCS when you need him I don't have time for this. Shame he gone. I trust the scholar with all Avatar related info and he's told us already that Avatar is owned by Lightstorm.

 

You're yet to show proof Avatar is owned by Fox / Disney, that's just conjecture based on this

 

AvatarⒸ 2022 20th Century Studios

James Cameron's Avatar is a trademark of 20th Century Studios. All Rights Reserved

 

This does not mean Fox owns the Avatar IP my friend

 

[XXRDJisDoctorDoom]

13 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

 

Where's JCS when you need him I don't have time for this. Shame he gone. I trust the scholar with all Avatar related info and he's told us already that Avatar is owned by Lightstorm.

 

You're yet to show proof Avatar is owned by Fox / Disney, that's just conjecture based on this

 

AvatarⒸ 2022 20th Century Studios

James Cameron's Avatar is a trademark of 20th Century Studios. All Rights Reserved

 

This does not mean Fox owns the Avatar IP my friend

 

 

What else could that mean, if not that? Whomever owns the trademarks and copyrights, owns the IP. 

[IronJimbo]

48 minutes ago, The More Fun XXR said:

 

What else could that mean, if not that? Whomever owns the trademarks and copyrights, owns the IP. 

1. you're making an assumption that fox owns "the" trademarks and copyrights

2. says who

[XXRDJisDoctorDoom]

57 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

1. you're making an assumption that fox owns "the" trademarks and copyrights

2. says who

 

1. It's registered to them....
2. The...law? 

 

[SnokesLegs]

I got the trailer for the re-release followed directly by the Avatar 2 trailer at my IMAX showing of Jaws earlier, anyone who says that they can’t see the improvement in CGI between the two clearly doesn’t have working eyes. It’s a VERY noticeable improvement.

Edited September 11, 2022 by SnokesLegs