Diversity and Gender Representation in Movies

[BadAtGender]

While I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, my problem is that this is relatively minor stuff compared to the absolutely vile things happening out there in the real world. And by making this a big deal, it actually takes away attention from what we should really be dealing with. Women are being trafficked(big problem in my state) abused even murdered and a joke about a fictional character is what dominates headlines and conversation??? We're fooling ourselves if we think these are the issues we should be spending our time fighting for. 

 

/rant

 

But what you're doing is an extremely common tactic to try to shut up women. "Why aren't you focusing on the REAL problems?" And you've set it up that only you can define what problems are real and what should be important for other people. It's a really shitty thing to do for a number of reasons.

 

Firstly, it ignores the fact that many people can and do focus on said "real" problems while also being able to criticize things that are "unimportant".

 

Secondly, it's pretty much saying that you feel you are a better judge of how a person uses their time and effort than they are. Moreover, it's implied that if they're going to criticize anything, they better ONLY be doing it for the biggest and worst problems at all times. Otherwise, what? They might as well not do anything?

 

(Beyond that, I rarely see anyone who brings up such criticism also mentioning that they are spending 100% of their time working on the worst and vile problems of the world.  It's hypocritical to expect anyone to do that.)

 

Thirdly, and this is probably a big one, it's very often brought up that critiques of media representation aren't important compared to other things, but by all indications media is INCREDIBLY important. How things are presented in fiction affects how people think and how they act. We need outside stimuli to come to any basis of understanding, and the media we consume contributes to a huge part of that stimuli.

 

So when people call out behavior from celebrities that is problematic, it's not a case of getting worked up over nothing. It comes from a point of understanding that there's a cascading nature to such behavior. When Jeremy Renner says Black Widow is a slut, regardless of whether it's a joke, it internalizes calling women sluts for others who see and understand that behavior as okay. HE might be talking about a fictional character, but it can have real-world implications.

[PDC1987]

I think Chewy said it best -- weeks and weeks ago when this whole story broke. Yes, he's just making a joke about a fictional character. That isn't really a big deal in and of itself. But the context and mindset behind making the joke is really just ugly frat-boy mentality -- very common but nonetheless a bit out-of-date and not really something that's worth encouraging.

Further exemplified by Black Widow being a "slut" but Tony Stark being a "stud."

[The Futurist]

Chris Evans likes to do it in the butt with girls.

He said it. I am not trolling.

What an insufferable macho.

[Avatree]

Chris Evans likes to do it in the butt with girls.

He said it. I am not trolling.

What an insufferable macho.

I may have many issues with sexism in movies... but someone enjoying anal sex is not one of them.

 

In what context did he say that though? I don't know why any actor would be telling people about their sexual preferences.

[KATCH-2D2]

If he doesn't think they should be equal to men I'd assume he's not a fan.

Yes it does.

He's freely admitting he hates Feminism. Feminism calls for women to be equal to men in society.

Nationwide in the US women are paid less than men to do the same jobs, and I don't just mean manual labor jobs. Women constantly have men voting on their bodies and reproductive rights in Congress.

This is movie-centric website so most of my views have more to do with stuffs that involve movies and less to do with real world issue.

I have nothing against HUMAN equality in general. I'm not a fan of fighting for just one part of society especially when it involves fictional worlds/fictional characters in entertainment business. The constant complaining/finger-pointing at every misstep of female characterisation in movies is annoying and most of the time unnecessary. Getting all offensive when female characters not kicking enough ass or showing too much vulnerabilities doesn't truly represent 'girls power' but instead misrepresents females as more needy, over-sensitive and insecurity-filled gender.

Have you seen any men getting offended when male characters were reduced to powerless side-kicks in THG series, Underworld series or Resident Evil series? What about when drool-worthy male characters like the Wolverine, Supes, Thor or Cap had to go shirtless (or bottomless ) or wearing skin-tight outfits to show off their figure so female audience could have something to drool over? Men generally don't make the mistreatments of male characters a big issue because they don't feel as insecure about themselves the way women do.

People come from different backgrounds and their backgrounds effect their view in the world so I'm sorry for not fighting the war I've never needed to fight for in the first place. I grew up in a female-dominated household. I've been surrounded by strong women and not-so-strong men so please forgive me for seeing those larger than life male characters in movies as 'refreshing'. I love good female characters as much as everyone because they make a movie better not because I feel like I'm well represented. Jumping to a conclusion that I'm a woman hater or that I'm against the idea of women being equal to men in society just because I refuse to joint a group of political movement is unfair and goes against what you're trying to support. If I'm entitled to equal rights and equal pays, am I not entitled to watch movies just to be entertained without a baggage of gender insecurities and inferiority?

I don't need to see Wonderwoman kicking Superman's arse to make me feel empowered. I also won't be mad if Supes kicks her back harder, I'll just go and pay my own bill while my male family members mowing my lawn and preparing my meal to get even.

Edited May 7, 2015 by KATCH 22

[Goffe]

That's a great post

[KATCH-2D2]

People who don't like feminism equate the entire movement with the most extreme fringe elements.

 

Feminism is based on a very simple concept: women are equal to men and should be treated thusly. Given the same background and work experience, they should be paid the same. They should have the same rights and the same expectations to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, etc. They shouldn't have to deal with weird double standards.

 

Proudly saying you're anti-feminist either shows you have a basic misunderstanding about what it means, or that you think women should be put on a lower tier than men.

I believe all men (as in, human beings) are equal. I don't fight for one gender/race/sexual preference over another.

 

Maybe I have a basic misunderstanding about what it originally means because some extremists have given the term a bad name lately. It's ok to fight for all things you've said above, I have nothing against people who fight for their rights and equality. However, I'm not a fan of people who've taken the fight from the real world into fictional world and started picking apart the things we're supposed to watch for fun to support their agenda. Under normal circumstances we'd call them bullies and call what they do a social harassment but since they'd done all those things under a feminism flag their wrongdoings were justified somewhat.

 

Maybe I'm not actually an anti-feminism because I have nothing against the concept itself, it's the extreme feminists that consistently get on my nerves.

Edited May 6, 2015 by KATCH 22

[dashrendar44]

Culture and entertainment don't exist in a vacuum.

[Jessie]

I think Chewy said it best -- weeks and weeks ago when this whole story broke. Yes, he's just making a joke about a fictional character. That isn't really a big deal in and of itself. But the context and mindset behind making the joke is really just ugly frat-boy mentality -- very common but nonetheless a bit out-of-date and not really something that's worth encouraging.

Personally I think you are over thinking it, its was a quick reply comment that was intended for humour, dissecting it like this is a complete waste of time. Its only getting so much talk because news outlets are looking for pointless crap to write about. Personally im glad Renner hasn't apologised, why should he bow down because some people have taken his words completely out of context and tried painting him as a sexist asshole just so they can get more hits on their website.

 

At the end of the day, most of the people reading these articles think its pathetic anyways, Renner doesn't need to apologise.

[Spidey Freak]

Except that he did apologize.

[Jessie]

Except that he did apologize.

 

well he shouldn't have

[The Stingray]

The radical feminists f**k it up for the real ones, just like ISIS f**ks it up for real Muslims all around the world.

[Lordmandeep]

Issues with radical feminists is many of their problems are first world problems and discredit the movement. 

 

 

Say that there should be equal opportunity I would agree.

 

Say that showing a movie where a women is cooking food is sexist, is laughable. 

[lilmac]

http://wiki.gamergate.me/index.php?title=Galbrush_Paradox

 

Absolutely not. If you can't tell a two bit con artist from one of your own, you really need to clean up your movement before you start 'suggesting' anything.

But maybe you're just naive and don't understand the problem. Do you know why there's so many white male characters in video games? Especially leads? Because no one cares about them.

A white male can be a lecherous drunk. A woman can't or it's sexist. Sexualizing women and what all. A white male can be a mentally disturbed soldier who's mind is unraveling as he walks through the hell of the modern battlefield. A woman can't or you're victimizing women and saying they're all crazy.

Consider Guybrush Threepwood, start of the Monkey Island series. He's weak, socially awkward, cowardly, kind of a nerd and generally the last person you'd think of to even cabin boy on a pirate ship, let alone captain one. He is abused, verbally and physically, mistreated, shunned, hated and generally made to feel unwanted.

Now let's say Guybrush was a girl. We'll call her Galbrush. Galbrush is weak, socially awkward, cowardly, kind of a nerd and generally the last person you'd think of to even cabin boy on a pirate ship, let alone captain one. She is abused, verbally and physically, mistreated, shunned, hated and generally made to feel unwanted.

Now, you might notice that I've given the exact same description to both of these characters. But here's where things deviate. While no one cares if Guybrush takes a pounding for being, for lack of a better term, less than ideal pirate, Galbrush will be presumed to be discriminated against because of her gender. In fact, every hardship she will endure, though exactly the same as the hardships Guybrush endured, will be considered misogyny, rather than someone being ill suited to their desired calling.

And that ending. She goes through ALL that trouble to help, let's call him Eli Marley, escape the evil clutches of the ghost piratess Le Chuck, it turns out he didn't even need her help and she even screwed up his plan to thwart Le Chuck. Why, it'd be a slap in the face to every woman who's ever picked up a controller. Not only is the protagonist inept, but apparently women make lousy villains too!

And that's why Guybrush exists and Galbrush doesn't. Men can be comically inept halfwits. Women can't. Men can be flawed, tragic human beings. Women can't. And why? Because every single female character reflects all women everywhere.

The horrible truth ls you and Sarkeesian want to craft a box into which you can force every female character into. Some idiotic 'ideal'. Putting aside the stupidity of exchanging one unobtainable role model for women with another, this has the added problem of making all female characters exactly the same. And when all characters are exactly the same, that's boring And boring characters do not sell video games.

[Dark Jedi Master 007]

Question: How do we define who is a "real" feminist and who isn't?

I ask this because while I believe that the radical feminists are a fringe minority who "f**k it up" for the overwhelming majority of smart, sane, rational, and well-meaning feminists, I'm unsure how we can say one group represents real feminism and the other doesn't.






 

[Jandrew]

Question: How do we define who is a "real" feminist and who isn't?

I see normal feminists as harmless and girls (and guys) that just simply want equality for women. I see radical feminists as girls (and guys, i guess...), that shout for equality, but nitpick and critique everything, get obnoxious and hypocritical, and put men down and blame them for everything, even though they want to be equal to men.

A:

Normal feminist: "I do the same job as Johnny and work the same hours, we should get paid the same, boss."

Boss: "Understood. Ill give you a raise."

B:

Boss: "Im giving you a raise, you will make $2.50/hr more than Johnny."

Radical feminist: "Why? Why are you giving me more? Did I earn it or are you just giving me more because you assume I have kids to feed and have to cook and clean for them? You think I dont have a man so I need more money otherwise I wouldnt be able to provide? Me and Johnny do the same exact thing and work the same hours, so what did I do right? Is this your way of hitting on me? Pig. I would never touch you, but I bet youre touching me with in your mind right now because men are perverted pigs. I bet youre undressing me right now, like im some rap video slut. Take your $2.50, boss, I quit. I dont need your handouts, and fyi I dont have kids and cook and clean for nobody, you chauvinist. I will be back, and Ill be sitting in that CEO chair, and every single male in this office will be adios, and you cant take your sexist coffee room convos about Miley Cyrus' ass to the office across the street. Pigs."

[BadAtGender]

Oof. There's a lot of misconception about what feminism is. And what radical feminism is.

 

By and large, it wasn't the actions of feminists that made feminism a bad word. It was the culture wars, especially the rise of right-wing media, that did that. Similarly, see how many people consider "liberal" to be an insult. It's been happening since at least the 80s.

 

Aziz Ansari has a good take on it:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz7ZzQbSiGA

 

Radical feminism was largely developed by identifying that many of the underlying problems that women face are due to the concept of the patriarchy, and decided that the best course of action was to take actions that actively undermined that power base. A lot of that, yes, relied on actions that are directly confrontational, but it's not like said actions are women being angry for no reason. (Somewhat interestingly, the simple act of a woman being visibly angry and confrontational is a political act, because many ideals about traditional gender roles has woman being in a more subjective place.)

 

Now, there is a lot of disagreement within feminist circles about what tactics are the best to take. Many feel that RadFems aren't taking the best course of action, particularly because many are pretty explicitly non-intersectional, such as the TERFs: Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists, those who believe that trans women are not woman.

 

 

Bringing it back round to diversity in film, though: A lot of the defense of Joss Whedon after the latest blowup seems to amount to "but he's a feminist and he's done all these great things" as if that now excludes him of any further critique, especially if he's giving off some iffy messages. Thing is, a lot of Whedon's feminism seems very tied to the 90s. Buffy's a great show, but it's not the be and end all, and he hasn't really developed since then. It's a bit white-girl feminism, which excludes a lot of the issues surrounding women of color and trans women.

 

Additionally, he's got a bit of history about racial exclusion: the treatment of Kendra in Buffy compared to later Slayers, the complete lack of any visible Chinese people in Firefly, and most recently the erasure of the Roma heritage of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. (He did great with the characters, but it's still bothersome.)

 

Mostly, there really isn't anyone who's in a position of being above criticism, no matter what their past actions. I think Jay Smooth said something like being good isn't something that you are, it's something you have to constantly work on. So regardless of what you've done in the past, people can and should call you on your slip-ups.

[Claire of Themyscira]

Sorry the MODs won't allow me to make any further discussion on this topic.

 

But I'm an anti-feminism and proud of it.

 

And I am ESPECIALLY disgusted that I missed this conversation and my impending clockage, draggage, and scalpage. Sigh. Proud of some of you though.

[KATCH-2D2]

 

And I am ESPECIALLY disgusted that I missed this conversation and my impending clockage, draggage, and scalpage. Sigh. Proud of some of you though.

You didn't read a word on my latter posts, did you? If you did and still came up with what you said above then don't be disgusted, I am not going anywhere. Don't forget to bring an army with you.

 

Because for all the craps I've gotten from my honesty, none of you seem to care to show me why I was wrong.

[Lordmandeep]

Some movements go to far. I have a gay friend who grows bored of radical gay right activists that want to boycott every business because of some loose ties to something that goes against third cause.