The Flash | June 16 2023 | Ezra Miller, Michael Keaton | We’re stoping the count at a Nice 69% RT (it’s 72% For Real) | Please Remember that Your Enjoyment Of The Film is Not Based On Others Opinions And To Be Nice To Each Other

[21C]

12 minutes ago, XXRptimus Primal said:

 

My current prediction is 450-550 WW. It seems like the film is being well received which is what matters the most. Whether this is a "bomb" or not isn't that relevant since they're rebooting the DC universe after AM2.

It's probably only relevant in so far as Muschietti's chances to tackle Brave and the Bold (especially being that a great chunk of the marketing for this has been centered around Batman; I really can't see a scenario where Zaslav or WBD would be comfortable giving him another big superhero blockbuster with Batman as a major character if this bombs), aside from that yeah this really changes nothing in regards to Gunn's plans. The people responsible for the creation of this movie are no longer in charge of the  studio. And nobody ever expected Ezra to come back. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by 21C

[XXR & Friends]

1 minute ago, 21C said:

It's probably only relevant in so far as Muschietti's chances to tackle Brave and the Bold (especially being that a great chunk of the marketing for this has been centered around Batman; I really can't see a scenario where Zaslav or WBD would be comfortable giving him another big superhero blockbuster with Batman as a major character if this bombs), aside from that yeah this really changes nothing in regards to Gunn's plans. The people responsible for the creation of this movie are no longer in charge of the  studio. 

 

I disagree with this. How he handled the film and the quality of it will determine any future plans they have with him, not the box office of The Flash. 

[Joyous Legion]

29 minutes ago, XXRptimus Primal said:

 

It's a fairly low possibility. Should do something in the $70-85M range.

 

27 minutes ago, Mulder said:

Rise is only doing in the high 50s. While there's a super slim possibility Flash does that bad, it's looking at the absolute worst to be in the 60s at least. So this feels borderline impossible honestly.

👀

[21C]

19 minutes ago, XXRptimus Primal said:

 

I disagree with this. How he handled the film and the quality of it will determine any future plans they have with him, not the box office of The Flash. 

We already know the quality though. It's a 71% at Rotten Tomatoes; which isn't bad but it hardly saves him if he has a 200 million dollar flop under it. I really can't imagine the studio being comfortable giving him such another large DC-related production (especially a Batman one that's also gonna have its fair share of challenges) under those circumstances. Brave and the Bold is the third film in their slate, they need it to fire on all cilinders and I don't see them taking that bet on him if this does bad.

Maybe if The Flash unexpectedly really connects with the General Audience and has an absolutely astronomical hold that could change, but if it opens at the range it's currently expected of it, and has just some average legs, I really don't think he'll get to keep that gig. There really won't be any argument for him for a blockbuster like this, at least not immediately after, not in this franchise and certainly not with Batman.



 

Edited June 11, 2023 by 21C

[Joyous Legion]

21 minutes ago, XXRptimus Primal said:

 

My current prediction is 450-550 WW. It seems like the film is being well received which is what matters the most. Whether this is a "bomb" or not isn't that relevant since they're rebooting the DC universe after AM2.

I think it’s fair to say “the reboot is already locked in so the BO doesn’t matter much to long-term anyway.”  
 

But why not “the reboot is already locked in so the reception doesn’t matter much to long-term anyway either?”

[XXR & Friends]

1 minute ago, Into the Legion-Verse said:

But why not “the reboot is already locked in so the reception doesn’t matter much to long-term anyway either?”

 

It does if they're intent on Muschetti directing in the new universe. If it's well received with fans, it's a useful selling point going forward. 

[PrinceRico]

Is it me or does Muschetti films seems to over use CGI. I just saw Mama and the ghost design was really bad. Even the IT films over used CGI. 

[21C]

10 minutes ago, PrinceRico said:

Is it me or does Muschetti films seems to over use CGI. I just saw Mama and the ghost design was really bad. Even the IT films over used CGI. 

In regards to this movie I really can't understand how Muschietti was able to have the amount of time he had to do post-production and still deliver badly on the VFX. Even the positive reviews are pointing it out as a negative. One of the articles from last year that talked about VFX in blockbusters and how workers are used pointed out that bad VFX in productions like this is typically the result of either a rushed production  or just the director not really knowing what they want/not knowing how to work with the VFX department. By all accounts, WBD never really even attempted to rush this movie, so it must be the latter.

Don't think that's something to particularly overlook either especially when the bad VFX could very well be playing a factor into why the promotional material hasn't translated in audience interest. I've said it before but every time a new promo image, clip or teaser comes out of this, there are at least a thousand comments on twitter mentioning the bad CGI. That's another reason why I don't think Muschietti will be safe in regards to landing another big blockbuster if this does poorly. It's not a stretch to think that if the film looked more visually polished it could be receiving more positive attention which would in turn translate to more interest.

Edited June 11, 2023 by 21C

[TerwillikerInst]

The reason why the VFX don't look good is the same reason why most of the movie doesn't look good, Muschetti is just not very good at blocking. 

 

There are many movies which have had way faker-looking VFX but those still have a charm because the directors clearly had a strong grasp of shot composition, actor blocking, and camera movement. 

 

You can use mostly practical effects, you can go all CGI, you can make movies with crazy aesthetics, or very plain boring ones. The main thing that matters is shooting what you have with purpose and a clarity of vision.

 

Of course, everyone's mileage will vary but the simple fact is, no cadre of VFX houses can compensate for a sequence in post that the director had no real idea how to shoot. (See 90% of all MCU climaxes for the past few years).  

 

This shot from Spiderman 2 is a perfect example.

 

Basically nothing in it looks 'real' (from the body movement, to the background, to the way the camera moves) but it's clearly shot with purpose.

 

You couldn't move the position of the camera or characters a few feet in any direction and end up with a shot that communicates what it's trying to say as effectively and stylishly.

 

Not so with most of the stuff in the Flash. 

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by TerwillikerInst

[poweranimals]

2 hours ago, XXRptimus Primal said:

 

My current prediction is 450-550 WW. It seems like the film is being well received which is what matters the most. Whether this is a "bomb" or not isn't that relevant since they're rebooting the DC universe after AM2.

I thought THIS was supposed to be what reboots the universe.

[XXR & Friends]

6 minutes ago, poweranimals said:

I thought THIS was supposed to be what reboots the universe.

 

I haven't seen it so maybe this film causes the reboot, but Superman Legacy is the "start" of the DCU. 

[WittyUsername]

11 minutes ago, poweranimals said:

I thought THIS was supposed to be what reboots the universe.

That was the plan when Walter Hamada was involved, but I’m fairly confident that the DCU won’t even acknowledge this movie. They’re probably going to get a different Supergirl, which is unfortunate for Sasha Calle. 
 

On the subject of Andy Muschietti, he’s basically a journeyman director, which probably makes him an ideal fit to direct the Brave and the Bold movie. 

[21C]

8 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

That was the plan when Walter Hamada was involved, but I’m fairly confident that the DCU won’t even acknowledge this movie. They’re probably going to get a different Supergirl, which is unfortunate for Sasha Calle. 
 

On the subject of Andy Muschietti, he’s basically a journeyman director, which probably makes him an ideal fit to direct the Brave and the Bold movie. 

I mean, yeah, he's a journeyman director but precisely because of the fact that he's a journeyman is that he wouldn't exactly be safe from a film like this flopping. Journeymen directors, since they don't have a specific remarkable vision, live and die by their box office, critical reception and whether they're able to handle the technical aspects of the job.  A flop of this caliber at the box office + average critical reception + widespread criticism over the most technical aspects of the film can absolutely derail his chances of tackling a 200 million Batman blockbuster. The fact he's a journeyman is precisely what makes him extremely replaceable. 

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by 21C

[TerwillikerInst]

13 minutes ago, 21C said:

I mean, yeah, he's a journeyman director but precisely because of the fact that he's a journeyman is that he wouldn't exactly be safe from a film like this flopping. Journeymen directors, since they don't have a specific remarkable vision, live and die by their box office, critical reception and whether they're able to handle the technical aspects of the job.  A flop of this caliber at the box office + average critical reception + widespread criticism over the most technical aspects of the film can absolutely derail his chances of tackling a 200 million Batman blockbuster. The fact he's a journeyman is precisely what makes him extremely replaceable. 

 

This is exactly it. 

 

If Greta Gerwig's Barbie had terrible-looking VFX action sequences it wouldn't really affect her reputation all that much because it would just be a case of an auteur director stepping outside their comfort zone for a one-off. No harm no foul. 

 

But if Greta Gerwig decided to pivot into making effects-heavy IP genre fare for the rest of her career, it would suddenly matter a whole lot. 

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by TerwillikerInst

[ZattMurdock]

2 hours ago, XXRptimus Primal said:

 

I disagree with this. How he handled the film and the quality of it will determine any future plans they have with him, not the box office of The Flash. 

I hate Zaslav. He is scum. But if there is one saving grace of his tenure so far was to understand that James Gunn’s The Suicide Squad bad box office performance wasn’t on him or the film, which is amazing. I’m not sure how I feel with the Muschiettis working on the new Batman, but if James Gunn thinks they are the right people for the project, I trust them. 

[21C]

29 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

I hate Zaslav. He is scum. But if there is one saving grace of his tenure so far was to understand that James Gunn’s The Suicide Squad bad box office performance wasn’t on him or the film, which is amazing. I’m not sure how I feel with the Muschiettis working on the new Batman, but if James Gunn thinks they are the right people for the project, I trust them. 

I feel even that the TSS thing didn't even factor into Zaslav's mind mostly because he's been very vocally against the day and date model that Jason Kilar was using, and very likely blames the biggest chunk of that movie flopping on Kilar instead of Gunn.

I've said it before but the two situations aren't particularly comparable either. Gunn's The Suicide Squad was extremely well reviewed, one of the best reviewed of the genre. And if we're talking about efficiency, that is a film that Gunn was not only able to deliver on time and under budget— but he even had enough time during post-production to do another very well-received spin-off for HBO MAX. 

And that's not even mentioning the fact that Gunn was able to also back himself up with the fact that the two big CBM blockbusters he did before, were also extremely well reviewed and made extreme bank at the box-office. Keeping him even after TSS was a no-brainer as Gunn proved himself to be an efficiency machine and uniquely skilled for projects of this magnitude.

Muschietti's and Gunn's situations here just aren't really comparable.  The best you can say for Muschietti is the fact that he did make the two IT movies into massive succeses—but even those would be lousy arguments because why would anyone use the IT films as reference for what a Muschietti Batman movie could do, instead of the big blockbuster he just made with not one, but two Batmen on it?

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by 21C

[Mr Roark]

Muschietti is no great director but let’s be honest… Flash had so many rewrites and reshoots because of WB that if the movie turned out a mixed bag it’s not really just his fault. They shot 5 different endings for this thing… I mean…

[Dominic Draper]

8 hours ago, PrinceRico said:

Is it me or does Muschetti films seems to over use CGI. I just saw Mama and the ghost design was really bad. Even the IT films over used CGI. 

He is 0/3 for me. 

 

For a horror director he seems to have 0 feel for the genre. IT was such a waste of Skarsgard and great overall casting. 

[Saul Goodman]

It Chapter Two definitely under performed both critically and commercially given the hype from the first.

[Johnny Tran]

IT - Chapter One is really good.   I think the disappointment of Chapter Two is now having people act as if the first one wasn't a huge success all around.