***SPOILERS***SPOILERS***BLACK PANTHER SPOILER THREAD***SPOILERS***SPOILERS***

[4815162342]

4 minutes ago, jimisawesome said:

Besides the obvious BP is the star of the movie so of course he did not die how did the movie make clear that the trail was not over? 

 

The beginning of the movie when M'Baku challenges T'Challa and it's clearly stated that the duel only ends when one of the combatants yields or dies.

[jimisawesome]

15 minutes ago, REC said:

I think you missed some scenes in the movie:

• It wasn't a coup, because as the movie explains the fight never ended.  It finally did end when he killed Killmonger.
• BP changes that xenophobic border policy at the end of the movie into an open policy.  That's the story arc.
• BP did try for a moment to keep his father's "fratricide" a secret in the throne room, but then Killmonger told everyone and that cat was out of the bag from that point forward.
• As pointed out Killmonger was neither a political opponent nor deserving of a trial by any rules established in the story.
• Both BP and Killmonger had outside interference going on in the end battle, not sure what their rules system would say about that.  But looks like they were willing to give either candidate for the throne a mulligan.  =)

I wouldn't claim the story is perfect, but that incontrovertibly refutes all of your assertions.

 

-Again no.  The coup was started by his girlfriend who then enlisted his sister and mother.  They started this and tried to raise an army before they knew he was alive.   And if you want to play the trail was not over well he cheated for the second time.  The first being the interference from Whitaker and then with flower.  All the ministers that watch over the proceedings also were of the opinion that KM was king.  

-After he had no choice.  The secret is out about Wakanda by the end with CIA guy knowing and with enough people on KM side before he was overthrown.  

-Exactly.  BP did nothing.

-Where in the movie is there any rule or suggestion that KM is not entitled to a combat with BP?   The only rule that came up with about the logistics of the event not if the event should happen.  There is a guy that was a like Steve totes needs to be here but it will take him weeks to get here.  KM says to this objection Don't care just lets do it.

-I guess you are right here.  YOu can even have the CIA help you and its fine. 

[rukaio101]

12 minutes ago, jimisawesome said:

Besides the obvious BP is the star of the movie so of course he did not die how did the movie make clear that the trail was not over?  And even if it did.  His mother, sister and girlfriend all thought him dead and started the coup before finding out he was alive by trying to raise an army.

 

This is not Star Wars.  SW is a silly kids movie this movie has been basically marketed as a political movie.  Disney is sure fine with the press going on about how this is mostly African American cast and the biggest budget movie directed by an African American and all the related records.  They seem happy about stories of entire classes and schools going to see this movie.  So don't pick and choose which politics are ok to talk about.   It automatically becomes a political movie when you have an African country that is in Central Africa and the CIA. 

 

 

You are right I am ignoring that line because it is so far out of left field of the rest of the politics he showed in the movie it almost felt as if someone either on set or in test screening said we need some reason to cheer against him.  Outside of that line, his was always a straight up liberation politic. 

 

I really did not see much character development from T'Challa which was the entire reason why I made my first post.  He went from entitled to entitled.  The last scene might as well been let them eat cake or flying uber.  

 

 

KM just went on a political outburst about what he sees as the political failures of the country and is challenging the leadership.  Yeah, that is a political opponent.  

If you are going to read that T Challa didnt have to accept the challenge and I am not sure at all how you can read that when the ministers were trying to find a way to delay it with but uhhhh we need to totally have to have Carl there yeah that is it until KM was like don't need him, then i think its a perfectly valid reading to assume no trial was forthcoming otherwise it would not have been a big deal the name revelation.   

Not for nothing, mate, but if one of your key counter-arguments is 'I don't count that bit because it disagreed with me' then people aren't exactly going to take the rest of your post seriously.

[jimisawesome]

9 minutes ago, 4815162342 said:

 

The beginning of the movie when M'Baku challenges T'Challa and it's clearly stated that the duel only ends when one of the combatants yields or dies.

This is basically a deus ex machina explanation.  We know its not over because of course the hero of the movie is not dead. 

 

But, the movie implies, as much as it can given that we know he is the hero so can't be dead or at least dead dead, that he is dead until the reveal that he is in snow.  Everyone in the movie believes him dead and the movie gives no hint that he survived again outside of the its a movie so of course our hero is not dead.  Not even a shot of him washing up on shore or the Mountain tribe fishing. 

 

This all started based on my claim that it was an illegal coup.  This bit of information changes very little about my claim.  T'Challa's girlfriend, sister, mother and the CIA started the overthrow (coup) when they thought T'Challa dead. 

[iHeartJames]

So yeah can I just say T'Chaka's black and gold suit in the beginning was so great

[jimisawesome]

8 minutes ago, rukaio101 said:

Not for nothing, mate, but if one of your key counter-arguments is 'I don't count that bit because it disagreed with me' then people aren't exactly going to take the rest of your post seriously.

So when I do it and give my reasoning for why i feel justified in doing so its bullshit.  But when you make up reasons I have to take it as face value? 

 

I will repeat again.  The line is out of place from the rest of his characterization and from the actions shown on screen.  The only time he becomes an agent of chaos is that line the rest of the second half the film he is played as a revolutionary. 

 

YOu on the other hand just get to madk up this T'Challa did not have to accept Killmongers challenge.  You based this on your own personal beliefs on how the king would not have time for this so it cant be a real rule.  This despite the movie showing very well that it was expected that T'Challa had to accept the challenge and the only questions was about the logistics. 

 

 

[REC]

24 minutes ago, jimisawesome said:

 

-Again no.  The coup was started by his girlfriend who then enlisted his sister and mother.  They started this and tried to raise an army before they knew he was alive.   And if you want to play the trail was not over well he cheated for the second time.  The first being the interference from Whitaker and then with flower.  All the ministers that watch over the proceedings also were of the opinion that KM was king. 

Ok lets narrow this down to your first main point (or points) here before moving on to anything else.

 

The coup as you call it had nothing to do with the fight that was still continuing.  Say the sister and girlfriend decided not to do that, BP still would've shown up and continued the challenge.  He still probably would've had people in his corner in that moment like his female guards and the general.  Maybe he would've won the fight, maybe not.  But assuming he had he would've been king again and then worked to undo any damage Killmonger did.  All the 'coup' did was speed and tidy things up a bit.

 

More to your point, the 'coup' had nothing to do with BP.  He didn't orchestrate it.  He's not responsible for it.  It has nothing to do with the continuing challenge.

 

As for the interference from Whitaker in the initial fight?  He paid for his interference with his life.  What greater punishment could there be?  And Killmonger decided to throw BP off the cliff, that turned out to be a mistake since it didn't kill him.

 

As for the flower power BP had at the end, well Killmonger had it too.  So fair is fair.  I'm sure their rules don't really account for this, but in hindsight any historians/rules arbiters/royalty/etc could reasonably conclude that while this was an unusual circumstance, it was ultimately fair.

 

The ministers may have thought KM was king but others did not.  It's fair to say elements of the kingdom were split.

 

You could fault the story for taking a "might equals right" approach to the resolution.  Ultimately all that really matters here is one lives, the other dies.  That's what must happen for there to be a clear succession.  It's not democratic obviously, its very old school.  I could understand you not wanting to get behind or root for that message.

Edited February 21, 2018 by REC

[DeeCee]

Test

 

Hydra is SHIELD

[75Live]

1 minute ago, DeeCee said:

Test

 

Hydra is SHIELD

 

I'm guessing this is about the Recent Posts "issue" that someone brought up  

[75Live]

5 minutes ago, DeeCee said:

Test

 

Hydra is SHIELD

 

and I see both our posts are there so yeah that could be an issue with a spoiler thread showing on the side

[KP1025]

So what do people think should happen with W'Kabi at the conclusion of the film?  Forgiven? Locked up for treason? He basically commands his entire army to kill T'Challa even though their match for the crown was rightfully still in session. Okoye further reminds him of this and yet he still throws away all loyalty to his former king because of political disagreements.

Edited February 21, 2018 by KP1025

[grey ghost]

11 hours ago, dudalb said:

Hard line Left Wing ideologues are no better then Hard  Line Right Wing ideologues. Just peddling a different brand of B.S.

I agree.

 

Reason over extremism.

[RandomCat]

...well this thread went down a path I didn't expect.

[Lordmandeep]

1 hour ago, KP1025 said:

So what do people think should happen with W'Kabi at the conclusion of the film?  Forgiven? Locked up for treason? He basically commands his entire army to kill T'Challa even though their match for the crown was rightfully still in session. Okoye further reminds him of this and yet he still throws away all loyalty to his former king because of political disagreements.

 

 

I am unsure..

 

 

Was he bitter with the BP for not avenging his father's death?

 

or did he actually agree with Killmonger political ideas? 

[KP1025]

20 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

 

 

I am unsure..

 

 

Was he bitter with the BP for not avenging his father's death?

 

or did he actually agree with Killmonger political ideas? 

He seemed visibly pleased with Killmonger's plan to use Wakandan weaponry to dominate the world. I believe his response to Okoye's protest was something like "I'd rather conquer than be conquered".

Edited February 21, 2018 by KP1025

[Valonqar]

1 hour ago, KP1025 said:

So what do people think should happen with W'Kabi at the conclusion of the film?  Forgiven? Locked up for treason? He basically commands his entire army to kill T'Challa even though their match for the crown was rightfully still in session. Okoye further reminds him of this and yet he still throws away all loyalty to his former king because of political disagreements.

Out of the sequels cause his story is over. M'Baku should get more screen time instead. Better character in every way. 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2018 by Valonqar

[Deja23]

22 minutes ago, Lordmandeep said:

 

 

I am unsure..

 

 

Was he bitter with the BP for not avenging his father's death?

 

or did he actually agree with Killmonger political ideas? 

I think it was both. He wasn’t interested in accepting refugees into Wakanda, but was fine with T’Challa sending him out to fight. So he had those ideas before Killmonger showed up. And I hope he’s punished, maybe locked up. I also wonder if Wakanda exile people who commit treason. 

[kitik]

2 hours ago, KP1025 said:

So what do people think should happen with W'Kabi at the conclusion of the film?  Forgiven? Locked up for treason? He basically commands his entire army to kill T'Challa even though their match for the crown was rightfully still in session. Okoye further reminds him of this and yet he still throws away all loyalty to his former king because of political disagreements.

 

When they briefly showed T'Challa walking into the throne room at the very end, you could see M'Baku was standing there in W'Kabi's place. Implying that he had replaced him.

[REC]

40 minutes ago, kitik said:

 

When they briefly showed T'Challa walking into the throne room at the very end, you could see M'Baku was standing there in W'Kabi's place. Implying that he had replaced him.

I like it.  Let a new kingdom with fresh blood be formed.

[Valonqar]

50 minutes ago, kitik said:

 

When they briefly showed T'Challa walking into the throne room at the very end, you could see M'Baku was standing there in W'Kabi's place. Implying that he had replaced him.

Fuck yeah! I didn't realize it was W'Kabi's place. Thank you!