Joker: Folie a Deux | October 4, 2024 | Lady Gaga is Harley Quinn in this 200M+ musical sequel

[WittyUsername]

On 1/30/2024 at 12:59 AM, Dominic Draper said:

Have you ever like, seen the weird fascination that happens by women for serial killers and they fall in love with them?

 

It's not exactly some bizzare notion when it happens in real life.

I’m not saying women falling in murderers doesn’t happen, but Arthur Fleck doesn’t exactly come across as the Ted Bundy type. Is Joaquin Phoenix even considered good looking? 

Edited January 31 by WittyUsername

[JustLurking]

21 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

I’m not saying women falling in murderers doesn’t happen, but Arthur Fleck doesn’t exactly come across as the Ted Bundy type. Is Joaquin Phoenix even considered good looking? 

Hybristophilia doesn't necessarily require the serial killer to be handsome.

[WorkingonaName]

27 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

I’m not saying women falling in murderers doesn’t happen, but Arthur Fleck doesn’t exactly come across as the Ted Bundy type. Is Joaquin Phoenix even considered good looking? 

Harley Quinn will be the first femcel starring in a major motion picture.

[BoxOfficeFangrl]

30 minutes ago, JustLurking said:

Hybristophilia doesn't necessarily require the serial killer to be handsome.

Arthur Fleck is "famous" in this universe and aligned with a political cause; that's usually enough to earn at least some misguided fawning. Even the guy who did the Dark Knight Rises massacre had "Holmies" fangirling him on Tumblr.

 

Joaquin was sold as brooding hot in his younger days. IMO Arthur Fleck isn't supposed to be regarded as conventionally good looking, but a lot of not particularly handsome men have had women attracted to them.

[Spidey Freak]

How have ya'll not mentioned the biggest example that is Charles Manson and his psycho groupies, less than 5 years after Once Upon A Time In Hollywood?

 

10 hours ago, BoxOfficeFangrl said:

The Journalist and the Pharma Bro

 

Martin Shkreli’s ex Christie Smythe on his release: ‘I’d love to see him’

 

.

I wonder what we will see of Harley's life here before she gets involved with Joker.

 

The original Mad Love portrayed Harley poorly, showing she slept her way to her degree so technically wasn't qualified for her job, got a job in Arkham hoping to write a sensationalist tell-all about the insane villains, and victimized easily by the Joker. 

 

Recent reinterpretations like Harleen have had a more nuanced take in showing she was a brilliant student who still slept with her college professor tho not for grades but instead for reasons stemming from neglectful, uncaring parents and daddy issues. Set up the angle of looking for love in the wrong places in a much better way and made The Joker much more threatening and cunning in identifying Harley as a mark despite her capability and efficiency while making Quinn much more sympathetic.

Edited January 31 by Spidey Freak

[Porthos]

4 hours ago, JustLurking said:

Hybristophilia doesn't necessarily require the serial killer to be handsome.

 

4 hours ago, BoxOfficeFangrl said:

Arthur Fleck is "famous" in this universe and aligned with a political cause; that's usually enough to earn at least some misguided fawning. Even the guy who did the Dark Knight Rises massacre had "Holmies" fangirling him on Tumblr.

 

Joaquin was sold as brooding hot in his younger days. IMO Arthur Fleck isn't supposed to be regarded as conventionally good looking, but a lot of not particularly handsome men have had women attracted to them.

 

In fact, the first article that BoxOfficeFangrl linked to noted that Ted Bundy isn't exactly handsome.  But that article also noted how the media tended to puff him up as a powerful, assertive force.

 

There's an old phrase, allegedly coined by Henry Kissinger, that goes "power is the ultimate aphrodisiac".  No matter what one thinks of his contributions to the world and/or how big of a war criminal he was, he was pretty spot on about that observation. For both men and women, I might add. 

 

And, for some at least, what is more powerful than someone who commits one of the ultimate taboos in multiple murders? Especially one who evaded police for some amount of time and/or is seen as being particularly clever.  That first article BoxOfficeFangrl linked to goes pretty deep into the differing psychological angles here, including name dropping the "shared delusion" of the title of this film. 

 

To give even more evidence, I'll also note that not-exactly-super-handsome Ted Kaczynski had his fans, including a Pen Pal who eventually turned lover.

 

NB: I should note that the original Joker was something of a deconstruction of this whole trope as it took pains to show just how much of a loser Arthur Fleck was in his normal/everyday persona.  Couldn't keep a steady relationship, had trouble in social situations, and so on. 

 

Can see something similar in many of the real life examples of serial killers in how they were dealing with social situations in "real life" before they became famous/notorious.

[WittyUsername]

34 minutes ago, Porthos said:

NB: I should note that the original Joker was something of a deconstruction of this whole trope as it took pains to show just how much of a loser Arthur Fleck was in his normal/everyday persona.  Couldn't keep a steady relationship, had trouble in social situations, and so on. 

That is largely what I was trying to get at. Sure, I can acknowledge that women falling in love with murderers isn’t exactly unrealistic, but the idea of this particular version of the Joker having an obsessed fangirl who he starts a relationship with comes across to me like it misses the point of the original. That was why I initially compared it to a Tumblr fanfic. 

 

Of course, we know very little about the movie at this point, so we’ll have to wait and see how it goes. I just think that synopsis from a few weeks ago feels at odds with the general tone of the first film. Critics accused the first film of romanticizing incel culture, but I think giving Arthur Fleck a girlfriend would unironically validate those arguments.

[Porthos]

5 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

That is largely what I was trying to get at. Sure, I can acknowledge that women falling in love with murderers isn’t exactly unrealistic, but the idea of this particular version of the Joker having an obsessed fangirl who he starts a relationship with comes across to me like it misses the point of the original. That was why I initially compared it to a Tumblr fanfic. 

 

Of course, we know very little about the movie at this point, so we’ll have to wait and see how it goes. I just think that synopsis from a few weeks ago feels at odds with the general tone of the first film. Critics accused the first film of romanticizing incel culture, but I think giving Arthur Fleck a girlfriend would unironically validate those arguments.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that the public personal of Real Life serial killers is pretty far away from their Real Life personas before they became notorious.  First article in particular noted how Ted Bundy wasn't exactly how the media made him out to be, at least to some who knew him:

 

Quote

Ann Rule knew him, but none of the girls today would listen to her observation: “Ted was never as handsome, brilliant, or charismatic as crime folklore has deemed him… A virtual nonentity before he was suspected of a series of horrific crimes, he somehow became all of those things as the media embraced him.”

 

Yet others thought this, too.

 

Bundy’s defense attorney, Polly Nelson, said his insecurity made her feel protective until he devolved into a demanding narcissist. When she met him, Nelson searched for a sign that she would have spotted the killer. “This dangerous man was not detectable by sight or sound…. It was not because Ted exuded charm – he was too obviously disingenuous to be truly charming. It was not because Ted was such a ‘diabolical genius’ that he could fool you – believe me, he was not that smart.”

 

If we want to follow the thread then, I would suggest that this film might be indeed a deconstruction of the type of folks who fall for the public persona of someone and not the real persona.  As well as, perhaps, the serial killer himself falling for his constructed persona, before it all comes crumbling down like a house of cards.

 

I think it's a pretty big "tell" that the film's title translates to "Shared Delusion":

 

Quote

Carol Ann Boone is among the most infamous of his admirers. She moved from Washington State to Florida to be close during Bundy's trials, married him and had his daughter. Boone believed in Bundy’s innocence and claimed he was being railroaded. During the penalty phase of his final trial in 1980, she even testified on his behalf. In Women Who Love Men Who Kill, author Sheila Isenberg said that Boone could not have truly loved Bundy. Instead, she'd loved “her own creation, what she wanted him to be—not what he was.”

 

Stephen Michaud interviewed Boone for his book on Bundy and noted that she referred to this killer of 30 women by such affectionate names as “Angelbuns” and “Bunnykins,” while he responded with “Precious Fleshpot.” Michaud thought they'd formed a folie à deux, a shared delusion.

 

We see this same denial in the women and girls who believe that if Bundy dated them today, he’d be a different man. This is not hybristophilia, a concept coined during the 1980s by Dr. John Money to describe addictive sexual arousal to violence. If it were, these girls would form the same fixation on other killers, including unattractive ones. This hyper-fascination with killers like Bundy grows from media portrayals of him as a handsome, articulate man who could sometimes be gentle and caring. It generates a yearning in some girls to be with him, emotionally and sexually.

 

That last paragraph, BTW, is what I was getting at when I was talking about the multiple different psychological angles here, as while they may be somewhat related, they're NOT the same.

 

Quote

According to Isenberg, who’s interviewed many women involved with incarcerated males, most cannot accept the inmate’s crime, and many had suffered some form of abuse. They had built fantasy worlds that satisfied their needs. These women, she theorized, “have a deep need to love someone with whom they can’t enjoy an easy, comfortable relationship. I would assume that the challenges of a difficult relationship may be more exciting to some people. The obstacles might make it more thrilling.”

 

Another persistent devotee was Doreen Lioy, who had beat fierce competition in 1996 to marry Night Stalker Richard Ramirez, killer of 14. Lioy had seen his image and fallen madly in love. Believing he needed a friend, she’d become his advocate, insisting he could not have raped or killed anyone. She'd described him as funny, charming, and kind. Despite overwhelming evidence about his brutal acts, she stated, “I just believe in him completely.”

 

Some females see the little boy in these killers and want to nurture it. Some believe they can influence a man as cruel and powerful as a serial killer to mend his ways. Some confuse brutality with masculinity. They think the serial killer they love is an alpha male who will protect them. With the media’s help, these killers become larger-than-life, and the aura suggests that they’ll deliver more than an average man might. They’re viewed as exceptional in every way, intellectually, sexually, and emotionally. And among serial killers, Bundy stands out. In the minds of his fans, his exceptionality generalizes to other qualities.

 

 

To sum up the above, and other points in the article, [which really is a great piece, BTW especially as it noted the Real Life Consequences for some of these women when their paramours got out of jail (SPOILER ALERT: They chose... poorly)]:

 

Some of the folks have unresolved daddy issues.

Some of the folks have deep and unresolved trauma that they haven't dealt with.

Some of the folks are looking for an alpha male protector.

Some of the folks are looking for someone they see as assertive and confident.

Some of the folks are looking for a dark savior.

Some of the folks are just broken inside and are looking for someone similar.

Some of the folks are looking for someone to fix/nurture.

 

A whole range of things, really.  One might note that none of the above really talks about conventional attractiveness.  At least outside of assertiveness/confidence.

 

Now as you say, we won't know until the film is released.  But, again, that the film is subtitled "Folie à Deux", which has a particular usage in crime stories, tells me that this is not exactly going to be a sympathetic look at the whole phenomenon.

 

As a matter of fact, it would not surprise me one iota if we found out that this subtitle was chosen precisely because of its usage in articles like the one linked.

[Maggie]

[Maggie]

 

 

 

 

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[WittyUsername]

 

[ListenHunnyUrOver]

 

Trailer coming in one month

[Firepower]

9 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

 

So pretty much just like the original?

[Firepower]

1 minute ago, ListenHunnyUrOver said:

 

Trailer coming in one month

Mid April is 2 months.

[Bob Train]

IDK why anyone expected this to be a full on musical. Probably just one or two musical numbers like Barbie, maybe as a dream sequence.

[ListenHunnyUrOver]

8 minutes ago, Firepower said:

Mid April is 2 months.

😂

[HummingLemon496]

I wonder if this will be as OS heavy as the first one

[Spidey Freak]

44 minutes ago, HummingLemon496 said:

I wonder if this will be as OS heavy as the first one

 

Guessing it won't as DOM would see an increase because of the lack of incel shooter fear mongering by the media this time around + Gaga's presence

[WittyUsername]

15 minutes ago, Spidey Freak said:

 

Guessing it won't as DOM would see an increase because of the lack of incel shooter fear mongering by the media this time around + Gaga's presence

I always assumed the fear mongering for the first movie actually helped it. It got a bunch of people curious to see what the big fuss was, like when everyone back in the day kept talking about how horrifying The Exorcist was. 

[TylerG]

Amazing pics. This is going to be massive, can't wait for the teaser trailer!