Fanboy Wars Thread: Personal Attacks not allowed | With Digital Fur Technology

[WittyUsername]

3 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

Our media and punditry class are centered around profits, and nothing drives profits better than conflict, controversy, and hyperbole whether its bullshit or not.  This ridiculous fear mongering and concern troll controversy is just one of their latest cash cows.

 

Honestly I'm not even sure an incel is a real thing, or at the very least its a much, MUCH rarer thing than assumed where you actually did get dealt a shitty hand with genes(and why do people always assume its just white dudes?).   This incel shit sounds to me like people who just don't give a shit about personal hygiene, how they dress, what they eat, or ever lifting a weight or jogging in their lives.  Am I saying anyone can bang a perfect 10?  Of course not, but if you care about those things and get some social skills, I promise you're not gonna go the rest of your life without getting some vag

There are self-proclaimed incels on the Internet. They aren’t a thing that people just made up out of thin air in order to make fun of people who can’t get laid. Still, I’m fairly certain that the majority of people who would be classified as such are relatively harmless. 

 

I do thinks it’s weird that the Joker is apparently perceived as a poster boy for these people, though. Even though I’ve always preferred to imagine the Joker as being asexual, it’s clear that most writers don’t view him as such, considering the existence of Harley Quinn. 

[robertman2]

24 minutes ago, CoolioD1 said:

Dunno who that is. As a man of culture I watched the subs.

the Harvey Weinstein of anime dubbing

 

Also a mediocre voice actor

[Firepower]

18 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

No, I mean that $55 million still seems like a fairly large amount of money for a grounded character study. To give an example, the movies distributed by A24 have significantly smaller budgets than that. 

And A24 movies look significantly cheaper than Joker. Grounded doesn't always mean small scale. Many reviewers said that it feels and shot like a big scale movie despite being grounded and it plays a role in the narrative. You can tell by the final trailer that it's bigger than your average drama and filming in New York, especially with 80s look, isn't cheap.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Firepower

[Ororo Munroe]

27 minutes ago, lorddemaxus said:

Except he only used Wick as an example. Switch it to A Clockwork Orange, anything and his argument doesn't change. You literally didn't read the second sentence. Philips isn't saying that the movie is being held to different standards critically. He is saying they are held to different standards in terms of how they are seen in terms of how dangerous they are. That's why he says "real world invocations". And to add even more context, here's another interview (I actually thought the John Wick part was part of this interview so I thought you would have read all the stuff in this interview already so my bad) where he adds more onto that: https://www.thewrap.com/joker-director-todd-phillips-rebuffs-criticism-of-dark-tone-we-didnt-make-the-movie-to-push-buttons-exclusive/

 

His problem isn't with one movie being seen as an action movie but another is seen a drama with social commentary.  But that one is being seen as dangerous and the other isn't. That one is thought to have real world implications and effects while the other won't. That is literally the same argument the right makes about video games. And let me add this again, this criticism is from people WHO HAVEN'T SEEN THAT MOVIE (capitalised and emboldened that because you miss that point every time).

 

And yeah, I would give any filmmaker a fair chance. I don't even like most of his work but I'm at least willing to give this a shot because it's different from his previous movies.

Yeah, it's clear that you are just as dense or willfully obtuse as Phillips. 

 

Of course Wick is just an example and it's bad example. I'm not even basing this on critical reception but on how movies are perceived in general. A serious drama, particularly one with an awards campaign, is going to be treated more seriously and thus face more scrutiny. If you're going to tackle mental illness or some other real social issue and using the Joker to do so and you don't understand why your movie may be seen as more dangerous or problematic, that's on you. Figure it out. It's not that hard. 

Edited September 29, 2019 by Ororo Munroe

[lorddemaxus]

17 minutes ago, Ororo Munroe said:

A serious drama, particularly one with an awards campaign, is going to be treated more seriously and thus face more scrutiny. If you're going to tackle mental illness or some other real social issue and using the the Joker to do so and you don't understand why your movie may be seen as more dangerous or problematic, that's on you. Figure it out. It's not that hard. 

I am obtuse for showing you that you're argument is completely off base? Show me awards movies or serious dramas that have been labelled as dangerous and will have real world implications. One that will influence people to do something as crazy as kill others or cause an incel uprising. Any awards movie. For all the controversy and scrutiny films like Bohemian Rhapsody and Green Book got last year, neither was labelled dangerous or were said to have real world implications. And both those movies were based on real stories unlike this one which is completely fictional.

 

No, he understands why the movie has been labelled as dangerous and problematic. He just thinks they are shit reasons and could be used on any other movie. How do people who haven't even seen this specific movie know that it is dangerous? There are so many films with mentally ill people as the lead or explore mental illness. Most of the talk isn't even about the mental illness aspect but the "depressed white guy becoming violent" aspect which, again, is in many other movies including serious dramas. I also would be surprised if this movie got same controversy if it wasn't specifically about the Joker (it probably isn't even edgy or exploitative enough for that to happen). All this controversy isn't because of the kind of film it is but because of the character.

 

And, yeah I agree that Wick isn't a good example. That's why I said I think something like A Clockwork Orange (which did get similar criticisms when it released though) is a much better example. 

Edited September 29, 2019 by lorddemaxus

[JB33]

41 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

There are self-proclaimed incels on the Internet. They aren’t a thing that people just made up out of thin air in order to make fun of people who can’t get laid. Still, I’m fairly certain that the majority of people who would be classified as such are relatively harmless. 

 

I do thinks it’s weird that the Joker is apparently perceived as a poster boy for these people, though. Even though I’ve always preferred to imagine the Joker as being asexual, it’s clear that most writers don’t view him as such, considering the existence of Harley Quinn. 

It's because people are being intellectually lazy and attaching a lazy label to the Joker character. They're saying he'll get rejected by Zazie Beetz's character then go and become the Joker and kill tons of people because of it. Uh no. It's far, far more complex than that, and I imagine that's the film's point.

[Ororo Munroe]

17 minutes ago, lorddemaxus said:

I am obtuse for showing you that you're argument is completely off base? Show me awards movies or serious dramas that have been labelled as dangerous and will have real world implications. One that will influence people to do something as crazy as kill others or cause an incel uprising. Any awards movie. For all the controversy and scrutiny films like Bohemian Rhapsody and Green Book got last year, neither was labelled dangerous or were said to have real world implications. And both those movies were based on real stories unlike this one which is completely fictional.

 

No, he understands why the movie has been labelled as dangerous and problematic. He just thinks they are shit reasons and could be used on any other movie. How do people who haven't even seen this specific movie know that it is dangerous? There are so many films with mentally ill people as the lead or explore mental illness. Most of the talk isn't even about the mental illness aspect but the "depressed white guy becoming violent" aspect which, again, is in many other movies including serious dramas. I also would be surprised if this movie got same controversy if it wasn't specifically about the Joker (it probably isn't even edgy or exploitative enough for that to happen). All this controversy isn't because of the kind of film it is but because of the character.

 

And, yeah I agree that Wick isn't a good example. That's why I said I think something like A Clockwork Orange (which did get similar criticisms when it released though) is a much better example. 

Well, obviously. It isn't just that the movie is a serious drama or tackles mental illness. It does so while centering one of the most famous homicidal maniacs in pop culture. More than that, we know from the trailers that Phillips' Joker is a loser type who is rejected by society. That in itself is enough reason for people to question this movie in ways they never would a movie like JW  (or worse examples like BR or GB). 

[JB33]

So @Ororo Munroe are you looking forward to seeing Joker?

[lorddemaxus]

25 minutes ago, Ororo Munroe said:

Well, obviously. It isn't just that the movie is a serious drama or tackles mental illness. It does so while centering one of the most famous homicidal maniacs in pop culture. More than that, we know from the trailers that Phillips' Joker is a loser type who is rejected by society. That in itself is enough reason for people to question this movie in ways they never would a movie like JW .

But they are questioning this film like almost no other film. The other films that were criticised for being dangerous (where the controversy was nowhere as big either way). The closest was that Taxi Driver Reagan assassination. So why do people expect something to happen here? 

 

Centring on the most famous homicidal maniac doesn't really matter when no one has tried to imitate him in real life (and no, the Aurora shooter didn't kill people because of the Joker). People are talking about something that has never happened so why are they worried this movie will? It doesn't even look edgy and exploitative like a Hamony Korine film (which have caused nothing in the real world to happen either).

[The Futurist]

2 hours ago, CoolioD1 said:

even if i do get shot watching joker it'll probably still be a more enjoyable cinematic experience than Suicide Squad.

That's the spirit.

True art can come with high  a price sometimes.

Hang in there.

 

Edited September 29, 2019 by The Futurist

[dudalb]

GLad to see others people remember that "A Clockwork Orange" had a very similiar controversy when it opened. Granted, that was before the Internet (Hell, it was before PC's even existed) but the media fuss was very similiar.

 

And now we have the De Niro/FOx News flare up. Even more free pub for The Joker.

Edited September 29, 2019 by dudalb

[dudalb]

4 hours ago, WittyUsername said:

Being a mess is the whole point of this thread, though, so there’s that. 

Yeah, this thread was set up a sort of a quarantine to try to keep the fan bickering contained to this particualar cesspool.. I don't think it fully suceeds, but that was a big motive in getting started.

 

[Ororo Munroe]

1 hour ago, lorddemaxus said:

But they are questioning this film like almost no other film. The other films that were criticised for being dangerous (where the controversy was nowhere as big either way). The closest was that Taxi Driver Reagan assassination. So why do people expect something to happen here? 

 

Centring on the most famous homicidal maniac doesn't really matter when no one has tried to imitate him in real life (and no, the Aurora shooter didn't kill people because of the Joker). People are talking about something that has never happened so why are they worried this movie will? It doesn't even look edgy and exploitative like a Hamony Korine film (which have caused nothing in the real world to happen either).

It matters because the criticism isn't just about whether or not someone will imitate Joker. A lot of the criticism is simply about what this movie is trying to say, its narrative, whether or not it makes Joker sympathetic. In that sense, it's similar to the criticism several movies have gotten recently for trying to make white supremacists sympathetic. (Burden, The Best of Enemies, for example.) Joker happens to involve a famous comic book villian so it's getting a lot more attention. 

[The Chad DC]

Random take: Infinity war's plot was video game level bad.

Edited September 29, 2019 by The Chad DC

[lorddemaxus]

16 minutes ago, Ororo Munroe said:

It matters because the criticism isn't just about whether or not someone will imitate Joker. A lot of the criticism is simply about what this movie is trying to say, its narrative, whether or not it makes Joker sympathetic. In that sense, it's similar to the criticism several movies have gotten recently for trying to make white supremacists sympathetic. (Burden, The Best of Enemies, for example.) Joker happens to involve a famous comic book villian so it's getting a lot more attention. 

I don't think most people criticizing Joker even knows either of those movies exist. And people can't criticise a movie they haven't watched. 

[JB33]

47 minutes ago, Ororo Munroe said:

It matters because the criticism isn't just about whether or not someone will imitate Joker. A lot of the criticism is simply about what this movie is trying to say, its narrative, whether or not it makes Joker sympathetic. In that sense, it's similar to the criticism several movies have gotten recently for trying to make white supremacists sympathetic. (Burden, The Best of Enemies, for example.) Joker happens to involve a famous comic book villian so it's getting a lot more attention. 

I think the filmmakers try to make Arthur Fleck sympathetic, not Joker, which is okay. People with severe mental illness should be met with more sympathy. Yes, even the white male ones!!

Edited September 29, 2019 by JB33

[Ororo Munroe]

1 hour ago, lorddemaxus said:

I don't think most people criticizing Joker even knows either of those movies exist. And people can't criticise a movie they haven't watched. 

Uhh, that was not the point. It's about the fact that Joker isn't as unique as you seem to think it is. And yeah, I think we know enough about Joker for people to offer certain criticisms. If we only had thoughts or criticisms of movies after we've watched them, a lot of threads on this forum would be dead as hell. 

[Nero]

7 hours ago, Thanos Legion said:

This is, indeed, the only saving grace in this thread being a constant dumpster fire.     

 

Though there was that one time it got totally derailed and talked about good anime for like three pages. That was good times.

I was talking about anime with others but someone got angry as to why we are not discussing movies, so he derailed and the peace is gone now. .. 🙁😞😫

Edited September 30, 2019 by Nero

[Nero]

6 hours ago, TMP said:

@grim22 It's been more than 2 weeks since my 2 week threadban for Joker was issued but I'm still not un-banned

Cause you are giving people unnecessarily Not Cool reactions like Shivampa so.... 😈😠

[Nero]

2 hours ago, The Chad DC said:

Random take: Infinity war's plot was video game level bad.

Random take : Your take is Suicide Squad level bad.