Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse l June 2 2023 | Animators deserve better

[AMC Theaters Enjoyer]

There have been rumors about Lord & Miller being pains in the asses for years but I didn’t think it’d be this terrible. Screw them. There’s something so gross about someone who puts on a fun persona in public but in reality is just incredibly abusive. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by AMC Theaters Enjoyer

[ZattMurdock]

19 minutes ago, cookie said:

You can't say there shouldn't be crunch while at the same time defending the process that leads to crunch in the first place. It's obvious the people at the top need to be told when to stop (it's entirely possible Phil would've just kept making changes if deadlines weren't looming), and L&M need to learn to plan out their films better at an earlier stage — all of Hollywood needs to do this, frankly.

Okay, then the way I see it, for this to work, there is no other option other than Lord and Miller taking at very least a much less hands on approach to this, if not leaving the production altogether. I still think this is simply unrealistic and not the way it should go. I’m not naive to think that what is happening in ATSV doesn’t happen with other productions I love from the animation world. Namely big Japanese productions. 
 

My point is that what this team did with ATSV should have at very least the same budget of a Pixar production, if not more, with animators actually being paid what they are worth. The way I see it, pushing for this instead of clashing with the creative process of Lord and Miller (regardless how despicable it is) should be the way to go.
 

What happens here isn’t that different to me than what happens with other studios I love, namely Studio Ghibli:

 

 https://www.wired.com/2020/07/geeks-guide-studio-ghibli/
 

https://www.cbr.com/steve-alpert-studio-ghibli-broke-labor-laws/
 

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The revelation comes in one of many anecdotes Alpert tells in his memoir Sharing a House with the Never-Ending Man: 15 Years at Studio Ghibli, where he speaks on his time with Ghibli from 1996 to 2011. He revealed how the studio broke labor laws to finish up production on Hayao Miyazaki's films.
 

Alpert stated that at times the staff was working "an illegal number of hours" when productions were aiming for deadlines. He went on to describe the working conditions during his time at Studio Ghibli, and how the crew worked a six-day week while not getting paid for overtime or taking any vacations. There was also potential gender discrimination that went on during that time, stating, "And duties such as cleaning the office and serving tea or coffee were mandatory for all female employees (only)."

 

During his time at the studio, Alpert worked in the international division where he helped to broker the Disney distribution deal along with pushing Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away to western audiences.

 

The way I see it, the house always wins. Meaning, the studios and executives. It’s easier to put the blame on Lord and Miller, removing them off the project altogether, then actually paying what these animators are worth. Other than that, if you are in animation, please make efforts to unionize. This is always a given, regardless of the field.

[cookie]

24 minutes ago, ZattMurdock said:

Let’s say that happens, Sony has less incentive to properly pay the animators but everything is a lot more of a better experience to animators because most of what they have been worked on ends up on the screen, helping their portfolios and what not.

Nobody said Sony shouldn't pay their animators more. They should have that incentive regardless if L&M are involved or not. What I've been saying is that won't solve everything.

 

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We’d still have a bad working environment because if the demands for less improvisation are taken care of with Lord and Miller out of the equation, but people working on this would have the satisfaction of seeing what they came up in the finished film. Is that really what we want?

What're you even talking about here? Less constant improvisation leads to less crunch. That leads to a better work environment.

 

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Because the way I see it, what @cookieis suggesting simply cannot be achieved without completely removing Lord and Miller out of the equation as active producers on this.

If they can't rein in their worst instincts, that's a them problem and not something their animators should have to constantly put up with.

 

And better planning and work ethics do not equal worse products, by the way, that's a complete fallacy. We've already seen with Marvel how a similar process lead to their films worsening as the scope grew larger and more frequent. The third film is nine months away but apparently all they've done so far is test stuff if the animators quoted in that article are to be believed. How is that sustainable? There's a chance Beyond crumbles regardless if they continue on their current course.

 

And no, L&M are not the only ones to blame here. That's why I said the whole culture needs to change. Am I being too idealistic in regards to that? I don't care. People should criticize poor working conditions without causing fearmongering about the movies supposedly getting worse if changes were made. Even if they do end up worse, then so what? They're just movies.

Edited June 23, 2023 by cookie

[ZattMurdock]

13 minutes ago, cookie said:

Nobody said Sony shouldn't pay their animators more. They should have that incentive regardless if L&M are involved or not.

 

What're you even talking about here? Less constant improvisation leads to less crunch. That leads to a better work environment.

 

If they can't rein in their worst instincts, that's a them problem and not something their animators should have to constantly put up with.

 

And better planning and work ethics do not equal worse products, by the way, that's a complete fallacy. We've already seen with Marvel how a similar process lead to their films worsening as the scope grew larger and more frequent. The third film is nine months away but apparently all they've done so far is test stuff if the animators quoted in that article are to be believed. How is that sustainable? There's a chance Beyond crumbles regardless if they continue on their current course.

 

And no, L&M are not the only ones to blame here. That's why I said the whole culture needs to change. Am I being too idealistic in regards to that? I don't care. People should criticize poor working conditions without causing fearmongering about the movies supposedly getting worse if changes were made. Even if they do end up worse, then so what? They're just movies.

Spider-Verse by its very nature has an insane amount of animation techniques and styles going with it. I never said that people shouldn’t demand for better working conditions. What I’m saying is that if these animators could vote on what they want, I kinda feel like they wouldn’t mind getting significantly more properly compensated with no crunch over having to rework on things because of the producers and directors artistic vision. My point is that we know for ages that some of the best films out there come from people that have a very public record of being a pain in the ass to work with, from James Cameron to David Fincher. What I’m saying is that regardless how much I don’t like the way that Lord and Miller work with and they clearly have earned that reputation, I don’t like the idea of criticizing their creative process to the point we’d rather see them out of the process altogether either.

Edited June 23, 2023 by ZattMurdock

[TheDude391]

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Edited June 23, 2023 by TheDude391

[ZattMurdock]

 

[JWR]

At best, this article portrays Lord and Miller as being way too ambitious when planning this movie. Which still isn't a good look.

[ZattMurdock]

1 minute ago, JWR said:

At best, this article portrays Lord and Miller as being way too ambitious when planning this movie. Which still isn't a good look.

I actually think it’s worst. I legitimately think it’s worst. This puts them easily as the worst people to work with in animation, at least at the western side of things. With that said, we all know  that a lot of people of the most critically and publicly acclaimed projects are made at similar conditions, and this means live action and animation.

[cookie]

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I never said that people shouldn’t demand for better working conditions. What I’m saying is that if these animators could vote on what they want, I kinda feel like they wouldn’t mind getting significantly more properly compensated with no crunch over having to rework on things because of the producers and directors artistic vision. My point is that we know for ages that some of the best films out there come from people that have a very public record of being a pain in the ass to work with, from James Cameron to David Fincher. What I’m saying is that regardless how much I don’t like the way that Lord and Miller work with and they clearly have earned that reputation, I don’t like the idea of criticizing their creative process to the point we’d rather see them out of the process altogether either.

But this is where the fallacy lies. Directors/producers/whoever do not have to be pains in the asses in order to make good films. Even Cameron has come out in the last year and admitted his previous behavior wasn't justified.

 

Lord & Miller can and should learn to plan their stuff out better and earlier. Studio Ghibli shouldn't go around breaking labor laws in order to finish their projects. If they can't do that, then they'll have to put up with people criticizing them because of the cost it has on the people working on their films, regardless of the amount of money they throw at the problem.

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by cookie

[ZattMurdock]

 

 

20 minutes ago, cookie said:

But this is where the fallacy lies. Directors/producers/whoever do not have to pain in the asses in order to make good films. Even Cameron has come out in the last year and admitted his previous behavior wasn't justified.

 

Lord & Miller can and should learn to plan their stuff out better and earlier. Studio Ghibli shouldn't go around breaking labor laws in order to finish their projects. If they can't do that, then they'll have to put up with people criticizing them because of the cost it has on the people working on their films, regardless of the amount of money they throw at the problem.

 

Why is it a fallacy if both you and me are openly criticizing them? Why do you think we aren’t talking the very same thing, with the caveat that while I’m criticizing their creative process, I respect it? The way I see it, when we talk about artistic vision, we are talking about the animation process to the directors and in this particular case, the screenwriters and producers as well. 
 

You are talking a lot of things I agree with. You are coming at me like I’m defending Lord and Miller, when that’s not really the case. I’m defending their artistic vision and their process, because I think it’s just too easy to put this on them. Yes, throwing money at the problem doesn’t solve all issues, but I could probably bet that over your pretty words about artistic vision, if the animators that worked on this project were part of an union like they should could actually vote between putting over Lord and Miller’s shit and getting majorly compensated for it with no crunch whatsoever or getting similar salaries than they had for ATSV with working conditions that would be a lot more smoother with Lord and Miller out of the picture, I honestly think they would prefer the first option because of the results of the first two films.

 

What I’m saying is obviously not popular, neither uncontroversial. But I think that it’s kinda shitty to shit on Lord’s and Miller’s process regardless if I don’t like how they got to their results. And somehow I doubt that you are so naive to believe Cameron has changed his ways and is a role model now. He is the best of our generation, but old habits die hard.

Edited June 23, 2023 by ZattMurdock

[Morieris]

It's not (only) that people are afraid of AI "Because it's new", it's because we can't trust people in power or the heads of studios to not replace people with it. In theory, yes, we could use AI to touch up a background and have a person look over it, but companies care about cost cutting and the bottom line; They will eschew the person to pump out a product and save money if they can.

 

Lord and Miller seem to be very bad at planning, and are better at editing and cutting down. If this comes out before 2025, I'll eat my hat.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Morieris

[ZattMurdock]

Just now, Morieris said:

It's not (only) that people are afraid of AI "Because it's new", it's because we can't trust people in power or the heads of studios to not replace people with it. In theory, yes, we could use AI to touch up a background and have a person look over it, but companies care about cost cutting and the bottom line; They will eschew the person to pump out a product and save money if they can.

 

Lord and Miller seem to be very bad at planning, and are better at editing and cutting down. If this doesn't come out before 2025, I'll eat my hat.

It’s coming 2026 or later. And I’m fine with that.

[lorddemaxus]

Wow, Phil Lord's keeping the family tradition going. He's just like his grandpa.

[Jonwo]

2 hours ago, ThomasNicole said:

Yeah, it was with me. 
 

People was questioning me for defending Pixar spending 200M in a movie and saying Spidey is made for the half of the price and looks just as good (and have better designs).

 

Now they know why lol 

 

Pixar is not only the studio, but all the process is made in their “home” by their professionals, apparently they’re well paid since we hardly see these types of accusations there 

 

Movies like Spidey and Mario is made by half of the budget because the production is outsourced and the work is precarious 

 

I think they have been crunch times at Pixar, Toy Story 2 had to be completely overhauled for example but I do think it's probably a nicer place to work compared to the Paris offices of Illumination or Imageworks in Vancouver. 

[WittyUsername]

I had a bad feeling in the back of my mind that the Spider-Verse movies might not have been very fun to make, especially when I heard that BTSV hasn’t made much progress, despite having been scheduled to come out in less a year, but I tried to tell myself that feeling was unfounded, and that Lord and Miller really are the wholesome fun guys they paint themselves as. Well, at least this makes the production of Solo make more sense. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by WittyUsername

[TheDude391]

I just can't fathom how you work years in animation and still can't visualize previz footage. 

[BadOlCatSylvester]

That cliffhanger is going to bite them in the ass. They should have made the ending of this more fulfilling and conclusive. The current one hinges on the next movie being out in less than a year.

[ZattMurdock]

1 minute ago, Jonwo said:

 

I think they have been crunch times at Pixar, Toy Story 2 had to be completely overhauled for example but I do think it's probably a nicer place to work compared to the Paris offices of Illumination or Imageworks in Vancouver. 

That’s the impression I get of them too. With that said, they held some very nasty layoffs one month or so ago there. I’d imagine it is better than what it looks like ATSV’s working conditions though, this is some sweat shops environment shit.

[Borobudur]

2 hours ago, WittyUsername said:

I don’t care if this gets moved to 2025 anymore. Just don’t treat the animators like crap. 

Now we should really apologize to James Cameron for his decision to delay A2 like endlessly. For a movie with that scale of revolutionary works of VFX, A2 went pretty controversial-less in VFX field.  

[AJG]

7 minutes ago, BadOlCatSylvester said:

That cliffhanger is going to bite them in the ass. They should have made the ending of this more fulfilling and conclusive. The current one hinges on the next movie being out in less than a year.

TV shows have 2-3 year cliffhangers. Lord and Miller just put out the conclusion to a 20 year cliffhanger a couple months ago.