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[excel1]

This is actually a very mixed bag for me. 

 

Critically, this is a very good film and one can see why critics are into it. Commercially, the enjoyment level would have benefited from just a bit more action and humor. I am highly surprised that Warners allowed Reeves to make this film and release it. This is a truly adult Batman movie. Burton/Schumacher made kids Batman movies, Nolan made teen Batman movies, and now we have a true adult Batman. The cast and production values are universally good, but without question the pace is slower and more dour than it should be. 

 

Despite its epic length, a lot of the films core feels seriously half baked. Some big points in particular:

 

1. Riddler murders/scheme don't feel important because we are basically told to hate the people he is killing. Of course murder is terrible, but why is it so important to catch/stop the Riddler? This felt so underdeveloped. The "Riddler is the Zodiac" stuff does not really gel because we never see or feel society impact from him other a few glimpses of people outside of the funeral. 

 

2. The "twist" that will "shake Gotham to its core" and "disrupt the entire city to its core" comes in seriously half baked. I get it overall - the city leaders lied to everyone about the Maroni crime bust success when they really just took it over for their own personal enrichment - but we feel virtually none of the side effects. We feel zero societal breakdown. The detective stuff and maze of personal dynamics is interesting, but frankly, the film would have benefitted from slightly less detective work and "Your dad was bad/no he was good/he was actually mixed/falcone is the real bad guy" and more of "society is breaking down with each reveal" type of stuff.

 

3.. The "flood" was almost entirely shown in the trailers and isn't shown with nearly the impact that it would have had in real life. The entire ordeal feels rushed. Riddler only mentioned his "day of judgement" once before revealing the big thing to Bruce. They absolutely should have made that a larger part of his plan throughout the film to add a greater sense of urgency to stopping him.

[excel1]

3 hours ago, Merkel said:

This will a long post, but some further thoughts I need to get off my chest:

 

The movie is a bit frustrating, as the visual presentation of the character and the world was so strong and sucessfull. Those first 20 minutes or so worked really, really well. Even that view of the "Gotham Times Square", as it were, suggested a city of huge skyscrappers separated by really narrow streets, that looked almost like an American metropolis laid over a european medieval groundplan. It feel really immersive and unique.

 

And as for Batman himself, although I don't think Pattinson is particularly tall, he really had a commanding figure whenever he was surrounded by other people. The way he walked, his body language, the voice the costume itself, I've never seen Batman so successfully realized in live-action. Easily, in my view, the best Batman we've seen in movies thus far.

 

But I do wish the masks in this movie actually meant something. There was only Selina Kyle in this, no Catwoman to be seen. And although I know in the comics she's often portrayed as using the costume merely as disguise, I still think she would be a more interesting character if the costume allowed her to express a side of her personality she wouldn't normally express. Embrace the "Catwoman" character, go a bit over the top with it, realism be damned. Here, she's just Selina, with a very ineficient disguise that barely hints at the Catwoman iconography, as if embarassed of its pulpy origins.  Besides, the character is fairly inconsequential to overall story.

 

Speaking of the meaning of masks, Pattinson is Batman throughout the whole movie, whether in costume or not. There was no Bruce Wayne in this. And the relationship with Alfred suffers from this. It's distant, cold, almost resentfull. I suppose they will develop it further in the future, but it just felt off here, although I'm certain Serkis has all the makings of a great Alfred.

 

I love the choice of Jeffrey Wright as Gordon, but yet again, the character felt really underdeveloped and someone who is constantly behind what's happening. He never figures out on his own who the crocked cops are, or who's really pulling the strings. He just leans on Batman to do his work. He was much more a means to an end for Batman to have access to crime scenes than an actual partner, on equal footing, in their joint crusade against crime and corruption. As I've said before, he lacked agency, and as good as the casting is, in here he's more reminiscent of the Pat Hingle Gordon of the Burton films than the Oldman Gordon from the The Dark Knight Trilogy.

 

Paul Dano was doing the same Paul Dano thing he did in movies like Prisoners or There Will Be Blood, with a bit of the Zodiac killer thrown in. He's not really the Riddler. When he was cast, it suggested a really obvious aproach to the character, and for being so obvious, I thought this meant they would go in a radically different direction. Alas, they took the exact same route you would expect when casting someone like Dano in this role. It's not that he gives a bad performance, but simply a very predictable one.

 

The plot promises a lot more than it can deliver and the story is easily the weakest part, as most characters really are very standard tropes with very little development throughout. Which is a shame, because I really think the casting was pretty much spot on for this.

 

It might sound like I did not enjoy this movie and that I'm coming across as too harsh. But the elements this movie did get right were done in such a pitch perfect, spectacular way, it really is frustrating not seeing the other elements living up to this standard. Those first 20 minutes or so are surely among the best of what has been done with Batman in live action, ever. It looks amazing. It's got a great cast. It establishes a fascinating visual language and the world building is, at times, quite stunning. I hope they have a better story, a better plot and better characters in the next outing. The potential is all there.

 

If you took this vision of Gotham City and the visual realization of Batman and put it into The Dark Knight, you'd have the perfect Batman movie.

 

Pretty much agree across the board. This is a good movie but it feels 1 more script rewrite away from being all it could have been.

[filmlover]

5 hours ago, Jonwo said:

I did find it funny that Penguin when he was left behind by Batman and Gordon started waddling, although it's quite a gritty and dark film, there is a few comic book elements in it.

 

 

I actually liked that, for as somber as the movie's entire atmosphere was, it wasn't afraid to have some levity from time to time. Farrell's broad performance provides a portion of that, of course, but it also seemed like a gag that the Carver twins were completely ineffective at their jobs of protecting their bosses given how easily they had their asses handed to them. You would think that Gotham City's powerhouse crime lords would be more selective about the thugs they hire lol.

[infamous5445]

It was pretty good! Tbh might be my favorite Batman storyline in live action. Really liked Pattinson as Batman although I'm iffy on his Bruce Wayne, was kind of weird to me. IMO Bale had the Wayne persona down perfectly.

[EmpireCity]

I saw it a few months ago and watched it again last night.  While I love it overall, WB absolutely should have talked Matt Reeves into cutting out the entire blow up the city sea walls and flooding Gotham Square Garden scene.  It was just completely unnecessary and is an action set piece that didn't fit with the entire rest of the movie.  The guys with the guns in the rafters, cutting the electric cable and electrocuting himself, etc.... Drug on way too long.  Could have cut all of it and done a smaller scene that fit the narrative and made it a 2 hour 40 minute movie.  

[excel1]

We also feel indifferent towards the assassination of the new mayor because we barely know her yet we know full well everyone she will be working with is apparently corrupt. Similar as to when Selina is trying to kill Falcone, the audience is like "Yeah, fuck Falcone". There is not any tension there. 

 

This story needed to be divided into 2 separate 2 hours movies. Really surprised this script was greenly when the final 90 minutes are so uneven.

Edited March 6, 2022 by excel1

[belblazer]

There was no need of the Joker scene at all. It's the only thing I would cut. I can't imagine that guy as Joker.

 

Phoenix >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[tawasal]

21 minutes ago, belblazer said:

There was no need of the Joker scene at all. It's the only thing I would cut. I can't imagine that guy as Joker.

 

Phoenix >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yeah I didn't like it either. 

[tawasal]

I really liked this movie, the same way i did with the Joker movie too. So the only movies of DC comics I like so far since the dark knight trilogy ended are these 2. 

 

So if they keep going in these directions I will be fine with DC movies. 

[Knights of Ren]

There are so many hints leading up to judgement day and the flood in the film that it wouldn't feel right whatsoever to cut that part of the film.  Its also critical to Batmans growth. 

[belblazer]

 

The likes 💀

[Menor the Destroyer]

2 hours ago, excel1 said:

We also feel indifferent towards the assassination of the new mayor because we barely know her yet we know full well everyone she will be working with is apparently corrupt. Similar as to when Selina is trying to kill Falcone, the audience is like "Yeah, fuck Falcone". There is not any tension there. 

 

This story needed to be divided into 2 separate 2 hours movies. Really surprised this script was greenly when the final 90 minutes are so uneven.

I agree with this flaw, actually (As I said in a couple of previous posts, I would have preferred if Batman's personal vendetta against Falcone became an issue for him, forcing him to struggle between personal vengeance and his strict code against killing). But I don't think anything in this script was that bad to make me wonder how the movie got greenlit. WB has greenlit much, much more flawed scripts than this. 

[excel1]

15 minutes ago, Menor Reborn said:

I don't think anything in this script was that bad to make me wonder how the movie got greenlit. WB has greenlit much, much more flawed scripts than this. 

 

Of course they have, but this is their biggest property and the issues should have been very obvious at the screenwriting stage. I find it difficult to think nobody reading the script said "a few minor adjustments here and there will greatly improve this thing".

[Knights of Ren]

Critics blasting this for not having humor when it literally had ones of the funniest moments of the year.

 

”I’m Thomas Wayne, and I approve this message”

[BestPicturePlutoNash]

How can you call this movie humorless

[FilmFincher]

Watched it a second time last night. I think the film is pretty great overall.

 

3rd act definitely has some issues, if anything that part came off as messy. 

 

Riddlers motivations feel less personal, I know the reasoning comes down to 'Gotham will never change' and it's a passable explanation but everything before that was so meaty and intimate in comparison. 

 

The stakes feel unclear and always shifting. At first you think it's a stop the bombs situation but that's dispelled quickly. The flood is seemingly killing a large amount of people in some of the overhead shots so it feels like Batman's already lost.

 

The stakes then shift to everyone's being corralled into the square and Riddler goons are gonna take a shot at the mayor. Which feels strangely minor and insignificant compared to everything that's happening but sure lets roll with it. She then gets shot. While she doesn't die, it does takes away from some of the impact of Batman coming in before the trigger is even pulled. 

 

There's an implication the other Riddler goons are there to shoot the crowd but this isn't emphasised enough, you don't get a POV of them aiming at the crowd like you do with the Mayor. I think if they drove that home that stakes would feel big and clear enough for the whole thing to work. 

 

Everything from Batman cutting the wire onwards really works. 

 

 

[elcaballero]

This was a damn good attempt by Reeves and Co., with just a few things holding it back for me. I really love what the movie does thematically with Batman, and him essentially inspiring the Riddler and his followers was an interesting take.  

 

On 3/5/2022 at 9:26 PM, excel1 said:

2. The "twist" that will "shake Gotham to its core" and "disrupt the entire city to its core" comes in seriously half baked. I get it overall - the city leaders lied to everyone about the Maroni crime bust success when they really just took it over for their own personal enrichment - but we feel virtually none of the side effects. We feel zero societal breakdown. The detective stuff and maze of personal dynamics is interesting, but frankly, the film would have benefitted from slightly less detective work and "Your dad was bad/no he was good/he was actually mixed/falcone is the real bad guy" and more of "society is breaking down with each reveal" type of stuff.

 

It felt like they pulled their punches a bit here. I personally wouldn't have minded Thomas Wayne being much more involved with Falcone. And a fake crime bust/a charity foundation actually being a slush fund for the rich and powerful would be perhaps the least surprising thing ever. 

[Saul Goodman]

On 3/4/2022 at 8:38 PM, Saul Goodman said:

Did they link Riddler or any of the villains motivation to Thomas Wayne again?

Damn I was right before even watching the movie.

[dudalb]

23 hours ago, EmpireCity said:

I saw it a few months ago and watched it again last night.  While I love it overall, WB absolutely should have talked Matt Reeves into cutting out the entire blow up the city sea walls and flooding Gotham Square Garden scene.  It was just completely unnecessary and is an action set piece that didn't fit with the entire rest of the movie.  The guys with the guns in the rafters, cutting the electric cable and electrocuting himself, etc.... Drug on way too long.  Could have cut all of it and done a smaller scene that fit the narrative and made it a 2 hour 40 minute movie.  

For once we agree on something. The last 20 minutes just did not fit in whit the rest of the film.It felt like a recycling of the climax of "Batman Begins"

But overall I loved the film. 

[FilmFincher]

I love all the parallels between Riddler and Batman. Especially the voyeuristic nature of both of them, you basically get the same binoculars POV shot.