***SPOILERS***SPOILERS***BLACK PANTHER SPOILER THREAD***SPOILERS***SPOILERS***

[Jandrew]

Why are people tripping about Agent Ross? I thought he fit in quite well. I was not expecting him to actually become a supporting character after the casino fight, or be so charasmatic. I will say, his "I only have 4 minutes to save the world" scene was probably the most cliched thing about BP, but it was still very enjoyable.

[Morieris]

"Please don't make me listen to your music." Is one of my favorite lines from the film.

[jimisawesome]

I am at a loss after seeing this movie.  Am I am supposed to cheer on Black Panther after he regained power via an illegal coup with the help of the CIA against the lawful leader of Wakanda?  BP that was willing to continue the countries xenophobic border policy despite being (according to the MCU map) right next to Uganda.  BP who kept his father's fratricide secret.  Attempted to silence a political opponent without a trial.  Had outside interference during the countries legal king election mechanism. 

 

I half expected to see a writing or story credit for Henry Kissinger.  

[That One Girl]

1 minute ago, jimisawesome said:

I am at a loss after seeing this movie.  Am I am supposed to cheer on Black Panther after he regained power via an illegal coup with the help of the CIA against the lawful leader of Wakanda?  BP that was willing to continue the countries xenophobic border policy despite being (according to the MCU map) right next to Uganda.  BP who kept his father's fratricide secret.  Attempted to silence a political opponent without a trial.  Had outside interference during the countries legal king election mechanism. 

 

I half expected to see a writing or story credit for Henry Kissinger.  

 

This could just be me, but I think you're reading into it a little too deeply

[jimisawesome]

9 minutes ago, That One Guy said:

 

This could just be me, but I think you're reading into it a little too deeply

It is just you.  This statement is a way to dismiss my criticism of the film without addressing them.  This movie is getting praised all over the place for its politics of inclusion and well politics inside of Hollywood yet there is no mention of the actual politics displayed by the characters in the film.  

 

I am not using some post-structuralist reading via a Marxist lens here.  Everything I pointed out is surface level.  

 

-The law of Wakanda is that the leader is chosen via a trial by combat.  This was established both at the beginning of the film and in the kings court when a number of ministers agreed that the fight for king should go on.  This is further confirmed when Forrest Wittiker depowers him.  

 

-It is Forrest Wittiker acting on the behalf of Black Panther that tries to interfere in this legal battle.  KM does nothing unethical during this battle.

 

-What else would you call the 3rd act other than a coup?  Martin Freeman is a CIA agent no question there.  BP sister, girlfriend and mother lead an overthrow of the legal government of Wakanda.  And the excuse that KM has gone crazy does not fly as they started the coup well before they added the KM insert about burning the world down.

 

-Xenophobic is a strong word but I think its well earned when W'Kabi says refugees bring their problems with them and BP goes along with it.  Especially given the context of a country that has looked away from the slave trade, colonization, and regional civil wars. 

 

-BP in the kings court knew KM backstory and how his father murdered KM dad.  BP was the one that demanded that KM be taken away without saying his name.  This despite KM bringing the most wanted man in Wakandian history to justice.  

 

Which of these am I reading too much into? 

[That One Girl]

1 minute ago, jimisawesome said:

Which of these am I reading too much into? 

 

dunno.  didn't read any of it.

[eddyxx]

How is it a coup if the trial by combat never ended?

 

"I never yielded and as you can clearly see I am not dead."

[dudalb]

1 hour ago, Jandrew said:

Why are people tripping about Agent Ross? I thought he fit in quite well. I was not expecting him to actually become a supporting character after the casino fight, or be so charasmatic. I will say, his "I only have 4 minutes to save the world" scene was probably the most cliched thing about BP, but it was still very enjoyable.

Because presenting a CIA guy in a favorable light is a red flag to some people on the militant  left.....

[dudalb]

17 minutes ago, jimisawesome said:

It is just you.  This statement is a way to dismiss my criticism of the film without addressing them.  This movie is getting praised all over the place for its politics of inclusion and well politics inside of Hollywood yet there is no mention of the actual politics displayed by the characters in the film.  

 

I am not using some post-structuralist reading via a Marxist lens here.  Everything I pointed out is surface level.  

 

-The law of Wakanda is that the leader is chosen via a trial by combat.  This was established both at the beginning of the film and in the kings court when a number of ministers agreed that the fight for king should go on.  This is further confirmed when Forrest Wittiker depowers him.  

 

-It is Forrest Wittiker acting on the behalf of Black Panther that tries to interfere in this legal battle.  KM does nothing unethical during this battle.

 

-What else would you call the 3rd act other than a coup?  Martin Freeman is a CIA agent no question there.  BP sister, girlfriend and mother lead an overthrow of the legal government of Wakanda.  And the excuse that KM has gone crazy does not fly as they started the coup well before they added the KM insert about burning the world down.

 

-Xenophobic is a strong word but I think its well earned when W'Kabi says refugees bring their problems with them and BP goes along with it.  Especially given the context of a country that has looked away from the slave trade, colonization, and regional civil wars. 

 

-BP in the kings court knew KM backstory and how his father murdered KM dad.  BP was the one that demanded that KM be taken away without saying his name.  This despite KM bringing the most wanted man in Wakandian history to justice.  

 

Which of these am I reading too much into? 

You totally lost me with the words Post Structural. Post Structualism is among the biggest pieces of phony BS every sold. it is so discredited that most on the left don't use it nowdays.

You can read anything you want into just about anything using Post Structualism.

And as for Marxist lenses, last time I looked Marxism has been a failure everywhere it has been tried.

[dudalb]

Hard line Left Wing ideologues are no better then Hard  Line Right Wing ideologues. Just peddling a different brand of B.S.

[75Live]

21 minutes ago, eddyxx said:

How is it a coup if the trial by combat never ended?

 

"I never yielded and as you can clearly see I am not dead."

 

not defending the guy at all, but why didn't it end?  because people got involved to save him so really he was going to die until people intervened which is not how the trial is supposed to go.  It's a one on one thing with no help.  it's nit picking but yeah he was going to die if the person didn't take him out of the river and then they give him the potion to heal him.

 

but I get this was just to keep the movie going so not saying it's a negative against the film at all.  Obviously he had to not die  

Edited February 21, 2018 by 75Live

[AndyLL]

12 minutes ago, jimisawesome said:

-The law of Wakanda is that the leader is chosen via a trial by combat.  This was established both at the beginning of the film and in the kings court when a number of ministers agreed that the fight for king should go on.  This is further confirmed when Forrest Wittiker depowers him.  

 

Trial by combat is over by death or yielding.  Neither happened.

 

But even outside of that there is a moral question that I believe the film wants to us to consider.

 

When is it ok to oppose a lawfully elected leader if that leaders actions are those of a war criminal.

 

Let's look at a real world example:  Suppose the USA president orders a preemptive nuclear strike on a country and the cabinet and/or military prevents that order from being carried out?  Are their actions justified or not?

12 minutes ago, jimisawesome said:

 

-BP in the kings court knew KM backstory and how his father murdered KM dad.  BP was the one that demanded that KM be taken away without saying his name.  This despite KM bringing the most wanted man in Wakandian history to justice.  

 

BP did not murder him... it was in self defense.  The 'moral' crime was leaving the son there.

[Lordmandeep]

1 hour ago, jimisawesome said:

I am at a loss after seeing this movie.  Am I am supposed to cheer on Black Panther after he regained power via an illegal coup with the help of the CIA against the lawful leader of Wakanda?  BP that was willing to continue the countries xenophobic border policy despite being (according to the MCU map) right next to Uganda.  BP who kept his father's fratricide secret.  Attempted to silence a political opponent without a trial.  Had outside interference during the countries legal king election mechanism. 

 

I half expected to see a writing or story credit for Henry Kissinger.  

 

[jimisawesome]

27 minutes ago, The Last AndyLL said:

Trial by combat is over by death or yielding.  Neither happened.

 

But even outside of that there is a moral question that I believe the film wants to us to consider.

 

When is it ok to oppose a lawfully elected leader if that leaders actions are those of a war criminal.

 

Let's look at a real world example:  Suppose the USA president orders a preemptive nuclear strike on a country and the cabinet and/or military prevents that order from being carried out?  Are their actions justified or not?

BP did not murder him... it was in self defense.  The 'moral' crime was leaving the son there.

 

T'Challa girlfriend, mother, and sister all thought he was dead when they started the coup.  They only found out T'Challa was alive after trying to raise an army. 

 

 

Your example is nothing at all like Killmongers plan was in the movie.  In fact, the US and every country that can do exactly what Kingmonger plan is.  In the movie, his plan is to arm the insurgents and hope they will overthrow their oppressors.  Those jets leaving are just shipping out arms.  The US sells 47 billion in arms.  The big European countries together sell 30 billion.  We put weapons in the hands of rebel groups in Syria hoping they will overthrow Assad, in the hands of the Saudis in their war against Yemen, pro-EU side in the Ukraine as just some examples that are in no way in controversy.  

 

add on-  The movie made no mention that any potential targets of the insurgency would be civilian either.    I would also like to thank you though for at least addressing what I said with good faith arguments.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2018 by jimisawesome
at add on.

[jimisawesome]

25 minutes ago, dudalb said:

You totally lost me with the words Post Structural. Post Structualism is among the biggest pieces of phony BS every sold. it is so discredited that most on the left don't use it nowdays.

You can read anything you want into just about anything using Post Structualism.

And as for Marxist lenses, last time I looked Marxism has been a failure everywhere it has been tried.

 

Huh, I was mocking all of that which is perfectly clear in context.  And if you think that Postmodernism and its umbrella nonsense like post-structuralism is discredited and not used by the left go see what is going on at pretty much all the major humanities departments in your state. 

[rukaio101]

1 hour ago, jimisawesome said:

I am at a loss after seeing this movie.  Am I am supposed to cheer on Black Panther after he regained power via an illegal coup with the help of the CIA against the lawful leader of Wakanda?

Seriously, man? The movie made a distinct point of showing that the trial wasn't technically over yet. Also, I can only imagine you'd be great fun at a Star Wars movie.

 

"What's this?! Those 'rebels' are launching terrorist attacks against the lawful government! How am I ever supposed to root for such people?!"

 

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BP that was willing to continue the countries xenophobic border policy despite being (according to the MCU map) right next to Uganda. 

Right, as opposed to Killmonger's much more reasonable plans of 'foster civil wars around the world and conquer other countries'. (Seriously, did you miss the whole 'The Sun will never set on the Wakandan Empire' and 'Better to be the conquerers than the conquered' shit?)

 

Also, seriously, this criticism only holds water if you deliberately ignore both T'Challa's character development and the entire resolution of the movie.

 

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BP who kept his father's fratricide secret. 

Which only he learned like an hour ago and is clearly still trying to deal with emotionally.

 

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Attempted to silence a political opponent without a trial. 

Okay, 1) Killmonger ain't a 'political opponent'. He's a guy with no obvious links to Wakanda (minus his father) who just turned up at their border. Plus T'Challa also knows he was the one responsible for breaking out Klaue. 2) There's never any indication that he wouldn't get a trial or even that he was going to be charged with anything. T'Challa just wanted him removed from the throne room, because 3) he was clearly fucking up to something.

 

Also, it's pretty heavily implied that T'Challa didn't have to accept Killmonger's challenge. After all, it wasn't the coronation and I doubt Wakanda would get anything done if any schlub with royal blood could challenge the king at any time. But, because T'Challa was emotionally compromised and still dealing with the residual guilt after learning about his father's abandonment of N'Jadaka, he accepted the challenge anyway. It also didn't help that probably didn't know the full extent of Killmonger's bloodthirstiness and the disaster that would follow were he to be crowned king until the fight was already agreed on.

[Deja23]

Killmonger wasn’t legally king because T’Challa didn’t yeild and wasn’t dead. Yes, he was rescued, but he wasn’t dead. Also, yeah Killmonger murdered Klaue, but he also freed him from capture in S. Korea and did so in a way that harmed innocent lives. Everyone in that room would’ve died if Black Panther hadn’t covered the grenade. It was obvious to anyone who saw that happen that Killmonger wasn’t going to be some benevolent ruler.

 

And Killmonger didn’t get a trial because he didn’t want one. When T’Challa mentioned they could save him, Killmonger said it’d end with him locked up, and T’Challa didn’t deny that. It was clear he didn’t want Killmonger dead, but there’s no way he could let him go free either. So Killmonger chose for himself to be dead rather than in bondage.

 

That’s not silencing a political opponent. Killmonger was the one who wanted to silence T’Challa by not acknowledging that the challenge wasn’t over, instead ordering W’Kabi to kill him. Not sure how these weren’t clear in the movie. 

[REC]

1 hour ago, jimisawesome said:

I am at a loss after seeing this movie.  Am I am supposed to cheer on Black Panther after he regained power via an illegal coup with the help of the CIA against the lawful leader of Wakanda?  BP that was willing to continue the countries xenophobic border policy despite being (according to the MCU map) right next to Uganda.  BP who kept his father's fratricide secret.  Attempted to silence a political opponent without a trial.  Had outside interference during the countries legal king election mechanism.

I think you missed some scenes in the movie:

• It wasn't a coup, because as the movie explains the fight never ended.  It finally did end when he killed Killmonger.
• BP changes that xenophobic border policy at the end of the movie into an open policy.  That's the story arc.
• BP did try for a moment to keep his father's "fratricide" a secret in the throne room, but then Killmonger told everyone and that cat was out of the bag from that point forward.
• As pointed out Killmonger was neither a political opponent nor deserving of a trial by any rules established in the story.
• Both BP and Killmonger had outside interference going on in the end battle, not sure what their rules system would say about that.  But looks like they were willing to give either candidate for the throne a mulligan.  =)

I wouldn't claim the story is perfect, but that incontrovertibly refutes all of your assertions.

[MikeQ]

As far as Marvel movies go, this is the best. Multifaceted, thematically rich, a wonderful blend of traditional and modern, a strong cast with fully realized characters, well placed humour that nails it, great action (the car chase and the casino fight are both aces - so many great moments in each of these sequences). And the first thing that struck me is that the movie has way better cinematography than any other Marvel film I can recall. Great work.

 

Peace,

Mike

[jimisawesome]

8 minutes ago, rukaio101 said:

Seriously, man? The movie made a distinct point of showing that the trial wasn't technically over yet. Also, I can only imagine you'd be great fun at a Star Wars movie.

 

 

 

Besides the obvious BP is the star of the movie so of course he did not die how did the movie make clear that the trail was not over?  And even if it did.  His mother, sister and girlfriend all thought him dead and started the coup before finding out he was alive by trying to raise an army.

 

This is not Star Wars.  SW is a silly kids movie this movie has been basically marketed as a political movie.  Disney is sure fine with the press going on about how this is mostly African American cast and the biggest budget movie directed by an African American and all the related records.  They seem happy about stories of entire classes and schools going to see this movie.  So don't pick and choose which politics are ok to talk about.   It automatically becomes a political movie when you have an African country that is in Central Africa and the CIA. 

 

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Right, as opposed to Killmonger's much more reasonable plans of 'foster civil wars around the world and conquer other countries'. (Seriously, did you miss the whole 'The Sun will never set on the Wakandan Empire' and 'Better to be the conquerers than the conquered' shit?)

 

Also, seriously, this criticism only holds water if you deliberately ignore both T'Challa's character development and the entire resolution of the movie.

1

 

You are right I am ignoring that line because it is so far out of left field of the rest of the politics he showed in the movie it almost felt as if someone either on set or in test screening said we need some reason to cheer against him.  Outside of that line, his was always a straight up liberation politic. 

 

I really did not see much character development from T'Challa which was the entire reason why I made my first post.  He went from entitled to entitled.  The last scene might as well been let them eat cake or flying uber.  

 

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Which only he learned like an hour ago and is clearly still trying to deal with emotionally.

Okay, 1) Killmonger ain't a 'political opponent'. He's a guy with no obvious links to Wakanda (minus his father) who just turned up at their border. Plus T'Challa also knows he was the one responsible for breaking out Klaue. 2) There's never any indication that he wouldn't get a trial or even that he was going to be charged with anything. T'Challa just wanted him removed from the throne room, because 3) he was clearly fucking up to something.

 

Also, it's pretty heavily implied that T'Challa didn't have to accept Killmonger's challenge. After all, it wasn't the coronation and I doubt Wakanda would get anything done if any schlub with royal blood could challenge the king at any time. But, because T'Challa was emotionally compromised and still dealing with the residual guilt after learning about his father's abandonment of N'Jadaka, he accepted the challenge anyway. It also didn't help that probably didn't know the full extent of Killmonger's bloodthirstiness and the disaster that would follow were he to be crowned king until the fight was already agreed on.

 

 

KM just went on a political outburst about what he sees as the political failures of the country and is challenging the leadership.  Yeah, that is a political opponent.  

If you are going to read that T Challa didnt have to accept the challenge and I am not sure at all how you can read that when the ministers were trying to find a way to delay it with but uhhhh we need to totally have to have Carl there yeah that is it until KM was like don't need him, then i think its a perfectly valid reading to assume no trial was forthcoming otherwise it would not have been a big deal the name revelation.