Avatar: The Way of Water | 16 DEC 2022 | Don't worry guys, critics like it

[Borobudur]

I feel like the only reason there still isn't any significant marketing material is the uncertainty surrounding Covid-19. They will try to delay it as much as possible to ensure no sunk cost on marketing that lost to Covid in the end.   

[TomCruiseTop]

12 hours ago, AnotherDayAnotherDollar said:

 

I've heard people make that claim quite a bit, but no one has been able to provide any proof. If you can provide proof then I'll happily take it. If you can't then I'll provide proof that Disney owns the IP and if you can debunk then I'll take that as well. Based on all research I've done Disney, through 20th Century Studios, owns the IP. I mean the comic books that you mentioned are ©2021 20th Century Studios. JAMES CAMERON'S AVATAR is a trademark of 20th Century Studios. All Rights Reserved. There's no mention of Lightstorm or James Cameron owning the TM or Copyright. Compare that to JK Rowling and Wizarding World where she clearly owns the publishing rights for the IP. TM & © WBEI. WIZARDING WORLD Publishing and Theatrical Stage Rights © J.K. Rowling.

 

Conjecture on my part, but Cameron does seem to have creative control over the IP while not having ownership. It may have been a condition for Lightstorm to transfer all the rights to the IP to Fox in 2005. And because Lightstorm, a company, transferred the rights to the IP and not James Cameron, a living person, then Section 203 of the copyright law does not apply and Cameron cannot regain the rights 35 years later like he regained the Terminator rights.

I've spoken directly with Dylan Cole who is one of the artists on the sequels. He and the entire art department are contracted to Lightstorm Entertainment - they own the production rights. If you look at the cases brought against Avatar when people were claiming it ripped them off they were all brought against Lightstorm and/or Jim, none against Fox. In fact you can go quite far down this rabbit hole because something is similar with Alita (although obviously that IP is owned by the Mangaka who first made it).

 

I have seen the docs between Fox and Jim back when Jim Gianopulos first gave the green light on the sequels and again they were signed between Fox and Lightstorm (which Jim owns) for distribution rights and services rendered.

 

My overall assumption is that Lightstorm has total control over the Avatar IP and currently Jim has total control over Lightstorm, however he's probably thinking ahead to when his family gains control over his estate in which case Lightstorm will pass to them and instead of him getting obliterated in taxes they'll dodge a lot of the heavy stuff.

 

I can't provide proof but a quick google search will point you in the right direction. You want to take a look at Maria Wilhelm she's the Operating Officer of Cameron Companies which is one of Jim's other companies. If you want to find the actual pdf docs that I'm referring to then look into 'tbase2' - another business Jim owns that originally set up the entire framework for the Avatar saga.

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

7 hours ago, JamesCameronScholar said:

I've spoken directly with Dylan Cole who is one of the artists on the sequels. He and the entire art department are contracted to Lightstorm Entertainment - they own the production rights. If you look at the cases brought against Avatar when people were claiming it ripped them off they were all brought against Lightstorm and/or Jim, none against Fox. In fact you can go quite far down this rabbit hole because something is similar with Alita (although obviously that IP is owned by the Mangaka who first made it).

 

I have seen the docs between Fox and Jim back when Jim Gianopulos first gave the green light on the sequels and again they were signed between Fox and Lightstorm (which Jim owns) for distribution rights and services rendered.

 

My overall assumption is that Lightstorm has total control over the Avatar IP and currently Jim has total control over Lightstorm, however he's probably thinking ahead to when his family gains control over his estate in which case Lightstorm will pass to them and instead of him getting obliterated in taxes they'll dodge a lot of the heavy stuff.

 

I can't provide proof but a quick google search will point you in the right direction. You want to take a look at Maria Wilhelm she's the Operating Officer of Cameron Companies which is one of Jim's other companies. If you want to find the actual pdf docs that I'm referring to then look into 'tbase2' - another business Jim owns that originally set up the entire framework for the Avatar saga.

 

I appreciate the time you have taken to respond.

 

A quick google search indicated that Lightstorm transferred all the rights to Avatar to Fox in 2005. Google search pointed me in the direction that 20th Century Studios is the copyright and trademark owner of all products related to the Avatar franchise. The copyright and trademark owner is by all intents and purposes the IP owner. Go to avatar.com and see who owns that and who is given credit for the copyright and trademark. Compare that to Lucas, who kept the IP from Fox, and the trademark and copyright to all products related to Star Wars. In that situation Fox only owned the distribution rights. In the Avatar situation it is different, as far as the evidence shows me. That's the most telling sign. If all 20th Century owned was distribution rights then, at most, they would own the copyright and trademark to release film(s) they distributed. The copyright and/or trademark for any merch, videogame, website, et. al. would be either Lightstorm or James Cameron like JKRowling has on Wizarding World or Sony has on movie related Spider-Man merch. The case with Sony is actually interesting because they own the rights to the movies they produce and they own the likeness to the characters on screen hence why if you buy a Spider-Man based off one of the movies you'd see ©CPII. None of that applies to Avatar and Lightstorm or Cameron. This is very telling on the ownership of the product.

 

Lightstorm is the production company, so contract going through them makes sense. If you can share the docs you have seen that'd be appreciated, otherwise a run of the mill greenlight doc between an executive producer at distributor and the production company is standard. Marvel Studios and Feige go through the same process to greenlight their 200MM projects. That does not imply ownership one way or another. That simply states that your project has been approved for the budget you asked for.

 

For the ripoff lawsuits 20th Century Fox was always included in every single case, presumably as the IP owner, even though the lawsuit is specifically against Cameron as the original creator. I will agree that Cameron has creative control over the franchise. That seems to be the case and he's involved in every decision around the franchise. Doesn't mean he or Lightstorm owns it though. His estate will also not have any ownership claims to the franchise, but they'll inherit Lightstorm and possibly continue his work.

 

Trust me I've gone down this rabbit hole quite a bit due to people saying Cameron owns the IP and whenever I ask for proof and no one can provide me with anything. I always need to have proof before accepting something as fact regardless of what the claim is. If you can't provide proof and google searches and all research actually is pointing me that ownership is actually opposite of what you claimed then that is the most logical conclusion to take. I know people would love Cameron to own the IP same way Lucas used to own Star Wars, but that doesn't seem to be the case and the evidence is overwhelming to that not being the case.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by AnotherDayAnotherDollar

[JonahVex]

whats? your domestic OW and domestic total predictions?

OW: $160m

 

DOM: $700m

[AJG]

4 minutes ago, JonahVex said:

whats? your domestic OW and domestic total predictions?

OW: $160m

 

DOM: $700m

 

DOM: $160m

 

WW: $700m

[lorddemaxus]

Any fan of Avatar should watch the latest episode of How to With John Wilson on HBO.

[JonahVex]

2 minutes ago, AJG said:

 

DOM: $160m

 

WW: $700m

its clearing 700mil in china alone. 

[TomCruiseTop]

52 minutes ago, AnotherDayAnotherDollar said:

Trust me I've gone down this rabbit hole quite a bit due to people saying Cameron owns the IP and whenever I ask for proof and no one can provide me with anything. I always need to have proof before accepting something as fact regardless of what the claim is. If you can't provide proof and google searches and all research actually is pointing me that ownership is actually opposite of what you claimed then that is the most logical conclusion to take. I know people would love Cameron to own the IP same way Lucas used to own Star Wars, but that doesn't seem to be the case and the evidence is overwhelming to that not being the case.

An excellent position to take. However, there are certain things I would prefer not to share on this site - check your DMs.

 

35 minutes ago, lorddemaxus said:

Any fan of Avatar should watch the latest episode of How to With John Wilson on HBO.

IronJimbo is in it. I paid for his ticket to NYC.

[XXR vs XXR]

55 minutes ago, JonahVex said:

whats? your domestic OW and domestic total predictions?

OW: $160m

 

DOM: $700m

I honestly have no clue. I can see anything from $100M OW to $200M. Domestic total I can see from $300M to $800M.

 

My current gut feeling is something like 140/500.

[lorddemaxus]

40 minutes ago, JamesCameronScholar said:

IronJimbo is in it. I paid for his ticket to NYC.

Whoa, that's actually insane.

[TomCruiseTop]

Just now, lorddemaxus said:

Whoa, that's actually insane.

The learn Na'vi community is a very broad bunch and an excellent resource. They also helped me to personally realise I'm not actually an Avatar fan, I'm a James Cameron fan. Those folks though, they're truly Avatar fans and couldn't really care less for Jim. Still, I try to help where/when I can and Seth - the main dude in the doc is a great guy, he has done a really great job of building that community.

[WittyUsername]

The more I think about it, what was the last film James Cameron made that people didn’t dismiss as a flop in the making. 

[TomCruiseTop]

11 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

The more I think about it, what was the last film James Cameron made that people didn’t dismiss as a flop in the making. 

True Lies? Maybe.

[Menor the Destroyer]

1 hour ago, AJG said:

 

DOM: $160m

 

WW: $700m

Not a bad guess for DOM OW/total.

[robertman2]

might wait until we get a teaser before making any predictions on this

 

this getting release under the Disney or 20th Century label?

[XXR vs XXR]

 

I wonder is he did the same thing with Avatar$ sequel 

[Maggie]

Is anyone bold enough to make an UNDER 1B club?

[AniNate]

I think it's a possibility in a worst-case scenario, but it's not something I want to bank on

[XXR vs XXR]

3 hours ago, Maggie said:

Is anyone bold enough to make an UNDER 1B club?

 

The only way this will make under $1B WW is if there's a lot of bad shit happening next December. Like, no China + theaters shut down worldwide. If everything is like it is now, it's going over $1B for sure. Even without China. Avatar is too big in too many places for it to fall below that. Also, $1B ain't what it used to be. 

 

[Issac Newton]

DOM Forecast

OW: $400M+

C.T: $1000M+ 

 

Current Record holder of biggest OW in single market is Detective Chinatown 3: $400M &This record will be broken in China with $420M-$450M by Avatar 2.

 

 Biggest Single Market is TFA ($936M). This record will be broken in USA by Avatar 2 with over $1000M+, again this record will be broken in China with $1500M+ (Current Record Holder in China: TBALC ($908M)). There are also many chances in getting huge numbers in Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan &Russia, where it will catch up all-time record in respective countries. I don't know much about Europe but TFA (£126M) record in UK will be taken back by Avatar 2. 

 

Overall, Major Markets' Local or previous Hollywood release are going to lose their all-time highest grossing film (both in admissions &Revenue) title to Avatar 2.

 

Again, WW biggest debut with be taken by Avatar 2 ($1.5B WW debut from early observation) from current Record holder: Avengers Endgame ($1.2B).

 

One of my favourite observation will be Weekend drop. (If it can drop below 5% or not). And many more uncountable numbers of records.