**SPOILERS** AMERICA CHAVEZ IN THE MULTIVERSE OF MADNESS **SPOILERS** READ RULES BEFORE POSTING **SPOILERS** ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK ** SPOILERS** DO NOT BE AN A-HOLE. **SPOILERS**

[Wormow]

3 minutes ago, Daxtreme said:

Raimi can't resist having a superhero story center around a main romance. 

 

That's just the way it is. And if it isn't there (Doctor Strange totally forgot about Christine his last 3 live action appearances), then he'll conjure it so he can have it.

 

People saying that Sam Raimi was constrained by executives to follow the MCU formula/continuity seem to forget that

 

1. Continuity with WandaVision is iffy.

2. Even continuity with the first Doctor Strange is iffy. So many dropped plot threads or glossed over, like Mordo.

3. Christine was essentially and completely forgotten the last 6 years of live action MCU and suddenly she's important to him again?

4. Vision was completely and totally forgotten even though Wanda created a massive Hex and enslaved a town just for him.

5. Wanda's descent to madness was great and absolutely the best part of the movie. It's also a bit too intense and I feel a lot of people have Dany season 8 flashbacks here. I think the studio would have preferred something less drastic but I suspect after Spider-Man 3 the conditions for Raimi returning was full creative control so they let it be (as they know the Darkhold can excuse pretty much anything she did here, it was stated explicitly 3 times in the movie that the Darkhold corrupts anyone who uses it)

 

So what I'm saying is that Sam Raimi wasn't constrained by executives. He did whatever he wanted, it shows, and that's what he came up with. For better or for worse.

 

And I say that as someone who loved the movie btw

 

I don't really blame Raimi at all for Wanda's arc here. I agree, he was hired to add his flair to the movie (after a recurring few years of everyone complaining the MCU looks and feel the same) - the "Raimi" touch and this movie was marketed to hell by Disney and in featurettes as being very Sam Raimi - and he delivered on that. I personally don't like his style, but it is very much his here.

 

He inherited a lot of the story when he was hired, including having Wanda has the female lead and the villain. He wasn't even made aware of WandaVision's existence until halfway through the writing process for the movie (that's what he said) - so I feel like if there are any issues people have with Wanda, that's on Waldron/the producers. 

[Menor the Destroyer]

7 hours ago, LVB said:

 

Wanda: Enslaves an entire town.

Wanda: Realizes she is creating a hex by trapping people.
Wanda: Doesn't care when Monica tells her about it.

Wanda: Comes out of the hex to confront S.W.O.R.D and warns them not to bother her.

Wanda: Refuses to take down the hex when the people tell her that they're suffering.

 

Agatha: Wanda, the Darkhold is the book of the damned and it's your destiny to destroy the world.

 

Wanda: Agrees to let the town go only when Vision confronts her.

Wanda: Realizes that Vision and the twins will go with the hex so she closes it again.

Wanda: Decides to destroy the hex because she's cornered.

Wanda: Runs away from consequences.

Wanda: Pursues dark magic through the Darkhold to get her fake family back.

 

People: Healing from grief and pain is linear! Wanda learned her lesson! She was ready to be a good person!

Lol she didn't destroy the Hex only because she was cornered. Seeing the Westview people forced her to acknowledge the full reality of what she'd done, of which she'd been in denial.

[Daxtreme]

Also, Christine being in 'What If' has nothing to do with her importance here.

 

'What If' was set during the timeline of the original Doctor Strange (2016), but an alternate version of it. Of course Christine was important to him at that point, as we all know from watching the first movie.

 

This is set in 2023. After all the events of the past movies transpired. Christine hasn't had a single reference to her in all those years since the original movie, that's why a few people (like valonqar, and to some extent myself) wonder... what the hell is she still doing here being so important?

 

She should have been cut of the movie entirely. Doesn't even change the movie's theme about Strange holding the knife; just make Chavez's role even more prominent and it's the same theme and character development for Strange, just without the love story part.

[ddddeeee]

Not ya'll expecting Strange to bring up Christine in any of his subsequent appearances. As if there was time for that or as if it was at all appropriate. Strange is still clearly hung up on Christine in the last movie. He treated her like crap and she moved on, but he didn't. The last shot is of him in the sanctum, alone because his ego meant he had no real connection with anyone. Here Strange learns to accept this and ultimately tries to do better. It's completely natural. Cumberbatch and McAdams have no chemistry at all, but story wise this completely checks out.

[Menor the Destroyer]

Yeah idk what people expect, should he be spilling his sob stories about Christine to Peter or something? 

 

I do feel like Strange's arc here, while sound, was far too muted. Superhero movies work well on big dramatic visual moments that make the audience really invested in the arc (think Tobey stopping the train in SM2). Strange didn't have anything super memorable here, even the zombie thing ended in a kinda anticlimactic way. He has cool looking visual scenes but they lack the proper emotional punch

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Menor Reborn

[YM!]

7 hours ago, LVB said:

 

Wanda: Enslaves an entire town.

Wanda: Realizes she is creating a hex by trapping people.
Wanda: Doesn't care when Monica tells her about it.

Wanda: Comes out of the hex to confront S.W.O.R.D and warns them not to bother her.

Wanda: Refuses to take down the hex when the people tell her that they're suffering.

 

Agatha: Wanda, the Darkhold is the book of the damned and it's your destiny to destroy the world.

 

Wanda: Agrees to let the town go only when Vision confronts her.

Wanda: Realizes that Vision and the twins will go with the hex so she closes it again.

Wanda: Decides to destroy the hex because she's cornered.

Wanda: Runs away from consequences.

Wanda: Pursues dark magic through the Darkhold to get her fake family back.

 

People: Healing from grief and pain is linear! Wanda learned her lesson! She was ready to be a good person!

I mean I think the moment in WV where Maria gives her a pass for her actions is still BS but it’s clear Wanda doing this makes sense given her struggling mental health (tbh actually acknowledging it in later stuff would’ve been a cool angle like Peter’s obvious PTSD being reduced to I can’t be Tony). Doesn’t excuse her actions in both movies though but it’s clear she needs help.

[Valonqar]

@Daxtreme gets it. 

 

 

1 hour ago, ddddeeee said:

Strange is still clearly hung up on Christine in the last movie. He treated her like crap and she moved on, but he didn't. The last shot is of him in the sanctum, alone because his ego meant he had no real connection with anyone. Here Strange learns to accept this and ultimately tries to do better. It's completely natural. Cumberbatch and McAdams have no chemistry at all, but story wise this completely checks out.

Cumberbatch and McAdams don't sell Strange and Christine romance. At all. And they wouldn't sell it if they were on the screen together 500 times more. So while I agree with you that it checks storywise, it still isn't convicning and compelling cause they never felt like a real couple. The writing and actors' chemsitry simply aren't there. And mind you, not everything needs mega screen time or development to work. Vader's redemption worked because writing and acting made it believable, even though it happened within last 15 min or so. Jaimie Lannister went from villain to hero within two episodes (lost his hand, protected and fought for Brienne). Etc. When it works, it doesn't need much. When it doesn't, nothing will save it. 

[vale9001]

Do you ever watch stuff like Buffy or Charmed?

 

Even Buffy or one of the Halliwel sisters can touch something magic in the fifth episode of season 5 and that thing can make them someone killing people. 

 

It's just that and it works in this context of cinecomics and magicians

Edited May 8, 2022 by vale9001

[MOVIEGUY]

6 hours ago, Wormow said:

Plenty of our heroes and avengers had have a dark side, you'd never see Doctor Strange, T'Challa, Tony Stark or Steve Rogers go on a murder rampage, darkhold or not.

 

Maybe they should

[poweranimals]

So while I loved the movie, I will say the main thing I was disappointed by was the marketing. There were lines and implications in the trailer that weren't in the movie. I was under the impression the events of this movie were tied to the spell Strange cast in No Way Home. The trailer gave off that impression as well, but there really wasn't any connection which kind of annoys me.

Edited May 8, 2022 by poweranimals

[Macleod]

7 minutes ago, poweranimals said:

So while I loved the movie, I will say the main thing I was disappointed by was the marketing. There were lines and implications in the trailer that weren't in the movie. I was under the impression the events of this movie were tied to the spell Strange cast in No Way Home. The trailer gave off that impression as well, but there really wasn't any connection which kind of annoys me.

 

"Take the money and run..."

[John Marston]

Wanda is going to be like Magneto. Constantly going back and forth from evil to good. Well, like father like daughter

[Brainbug]

I had a total blast with this.

 

First, this is not a horror movie lmao. There are many great nods to great horror films (Mainly Evil Dead ofc, but the "The Ring" scene was also neat), but theres nothing really scary here. Zombie Strange at the end was exactly the kind of Raimi Army of Darkness vibe that i needed. Also, i found it very good that there are not too many jokes in this. The atmosphere is more serious, which works great.

 

Wanda is now my 2nd favourite antagonist/villain in the MCU after Thanos. I realize that her writing could have been better, but her as an antagonistic force - it was just so awesome. All those rather brutal deaths, the fact that shes truly relentless and her powers make her so entertaining and at the same time initimidating. That neck snap was raw.

 

Also really liked the music and the perfomances all around here. My favourite scene was probably the Music notes battle between the two Stranges, amazing stuff. Visually, its easily one of the best Marvel movies for me. Wanda was smocking hot, wich helped as well.

 

Things i didnt really like: Some of the dialogue was a bit cheap and the Illuminati were a total joke, though thats not too much of an issue from me since i didnt know them beforehand and was just in awe at Wanda destroying them.

 

9/10, great entry in the MCU.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Brainbug the Dinosaur

[IceFire9yt]

Yeah, I'll die on this hill for MoM.  An amazing movie that goes all out from start to finish.

 

I love Wanda as the villain.  I love the moment where I realized 'wait, Wanda's the bad guy'.  I love seeing her get to absolutely wreck shit.  I love that the Illuminati is so fucking arrogant, thinking they can handle this 'little witch', only for them to realize they aren't even on the same level. 'Black Bolt could destroy you by opening his mouth' 'What mouth?'  Fucking god, I'm shaken.  I love that they let her be a legitimately terrible person in this movie, that they weren't afraid to go there.

 

I like the portrayal of Doctor Strange as someone will to do anything for the greater good, and how sometimes that has terrible consequences, but sometimes that is exactly what you need.  I love how at the end, Doctor Strange, the person who 'always has to have the knife' realizes the solution is to let America have the knife.  He uses the Darkhold, but with the intention of empowering someone else because he realizes he doesn't have all the answers himself.  Its a nice bit of character growth.

 

I love that they brought Patrick Stewart back as professor X, and I think this movie did right by his character.  He was the only one of the Illuminati to give Strange a second chance, it was such Professor X thing to do.  Needless to say, the visuals and action are incredible and creative, everything I'd want out of reality bending, multiverse hopping magic.

 

I guess the only thing that fell partially flat for me is Christine.  I never bought them having any chemistry together in the first movie, so I'm not sold on her being Strange's 'one that got away'.  Still, I think their dynamic works better in this movie, if only because so much of it is showing why they don't work as a couple.

 

The horror movie aspect of this is overblown, but I can definitely see how the visuals were inspired from horror to great effect.  Still this isn't a great movie for kids, which will no doubt hurt its box office, but honestly I'm just glad that we got such a fucking ride of a movie.

 

I'll have to mull it over for a bit, but this is definitely going to be rated in the top tier of the MCU for me (a club that consists of the Winter Soldier, Endgame, Infinity War, Ragnarok, and the Avengers).  I was honestly worried I wouldn't like it (I don't like horror movies, and had seen that this wasn't a home run, critically), so this movie massively exceeded expectations for me.

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by IceFire9yt

[Spidey Freak]

All Wanda needs to do is to bust some moves at the club and she'll be good with the fans.

 

Case in point

[Valonqar]

Wanda with oil smear on her face was 1000 times scarier than CGI zombie Strange. Proof right there that less is more. There's something really unnerving about that smear while CGI zombie looked laughable and when he spoke he seemed like he had a toothache.  Olsen also brought the Terminator energy to her performance. You wouldn't want to meet her in a dark alley that's for sure.

[poweranimals]

5 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

Wanda with oil smear on her face was 1000 times scarier than CGI zombie Strange. Proof right there that less is more. There's something really unnerving about that smear while CGI zombie looked laughable and when he spoke he seemed like he had a toothache.  Olsen also brought the Terminator energy to her performance. You wouldn't want to meet her in a dark alley that's for sure.

The difference is that Wanda was trying to kill everyone. Zombie Strange was not. It was played more for comedy.

Edited May 8, 2022 by poweranimals

[ddddeeee]

I'm clearly useless because I've seen the movie twice now and thought Zombie Strange was make-up.

[dudalb]

21 hours ago, iHeartJames said:

Which is why I'm confused the comics retconned Americas origin yet the MCU used her original Utopia origin story with her moms

Because Fiege probably felt the original origin was more suited for the movies then the retconned ones.

You have not picked up that Fiege has always felt free to pick the material he thinks was best for the movies, from the whole run of Marvel comics, and did not care if it was the current version or not?

And I think that retconning had become the curse of the comics, anyway.

[dudalb]

I really, really liked it. It  has flaws...I can see why people who have not seen Wandavision would think that Wanda's turning to the Dark Side was sort of sudden...but I really loved it.

I knew I would like it from the opening scenes, where the visuals were taken straight from Steve Ditko's original run on  Dr. Strange.

Biggest  crowd reaction was to Reed Richard and Professor X.

IMHO a Charlene Therion is a great choice for Clea.