Black Widow | July 9 2021 | ScarJo secures the bag from Disney

[Arlborn]

1 hour ago, expensiveho said:

You can see Perlmutter influence in Phase 1/2 vs Phase 3 when it comes to reception and success. There's really nothing to argue about. 

 

WW is the most iconic female SH, SO I think she deserved to be the first to get a movie, but to say its success influenced Marvel Studios is just dumb, it might have given them confidence but both CM/BW have been in development years before WW smashed. 

 

Also lol at Eternals. Are people just being dense about where they're trying to go or they're just one of those people that didn't see IW/can't add 2+2?

Being "in development" and actually being made are two very different things. "Development hell" is a lingo that exists for a reason.

[Orestes]

1 hour ago, Arlborn said:

Being "in development" and actually being made are two very different things. "Development hell" is a lingo that exists for a reason.

Marvel has a pretty good track record for getting things "in development" onto the screen so far. The only "in development" film that I'm aware didn't make it was Inhumans, possibly because Feige had to agree to it for Perlmutter to agree to Black Panther and Captain Marvel. Once Perlmutter was out, so was Inhumans.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Orestes

[DeeCee]

That’s crazy talk. 

 

Inhumans had a premium IMAX release. 

[terrestrial]

24 minutes ago, Arlborn said:

Being "in development" and actually being made are two very different things. "Development hell" is a lingo that exists for a reason.

It's about the claims of quite some (all over the board and elsewhere), that the success of WW is the (for some even 'sole') reason other studios even dare / got the idea to do female lead movies too. Just in case.

(plus the reasons for long development times can be very different, not all of those are for a situation why I'd use development hell as a term, but in general I agree)

 

I looked up the date: the articles about Lionsgate not doing Black Widow are from early June 2006. At SHH this was to read

Quote

Natasha Romanova, a Russian spy who made her debut in “The Invincible Iron Man.” She also was part of the superteams assembled in “The Champions” and “The Avengers” comics series. She ultimately became a love interest of Daredevil, gaining her popularity in the “Daredevil” comics.

Hayter’s version would have involved the Black Widow being given to the KGB at birth. The KGB grooms her to become its ultimate operative. When the U.S.S.R. breaks up, the government tries to kill her as the action moves to present-day New York, where she is a freelance operative.

Hayter spoke with Marvel then too, I do see why they tried to include her as early as possible considering they had early on plans for spy parts, IM was already in preparation and so on

 

The fun detail is to me, the same guy who sold all the characters (and wrote himself as a 'must be involved producer into the contracts, beside not being a 100% owner, something he would here end before court for undue enrichment), had now to get some of them back.

How inconvenient a situations that had to be. 😉

 

[terrestrial]

19 minutes ago, DeeCee said:

Inhumans had a premium IMAX release. 

That was the 2nd time IMAX did a TV series, if counting something like Sherlock The Abominable Bride as a TV series? Or is that considered not a TV series but a TV movie series?  Still wondering about that one. Or is/was there another TV thing at IMAX earlier?

 

 

I got curious and looked it up, in the old stories BW was born either in 1927 or 1928, as she was a toddler/baby when she was rescues by her mother out of the burning house 'giving' her to Ivan Petrovich who partly raised her.

At the time of her first mission she was 11 years old (that's mission year in combination with the year of the rescue means probably born in 1927)

In another / later series its told she is born latest 1942 (her 'dad' telling that to Daredevil), but as her 'dad' too seems to have gotten the slow-age serum, it is possible he told that to hide the serum detail. Never read that one, so I do not know the background

In the MCU Prelude comic 'Black Widow' is her first appearance '64 comic added I think.

[Darth Lehnsherr]

53 minutes ago, DeeCee said:

That’s crazy talk. 

 

Inhumans had a premium IMAX release. 

It was annoying to go to Box Office Mojo and check what the average MCU gross was only for it to be skewed because they had counted Inhumans as well. Glad it's gone now.

[AndyK]

4 hours ago, Arlborn said:

Being "in development" and actually being made are two very different things. "Development hell" is a lingo that exists for a reason.

How long was WW in development hell though ?

 

I think not having a good script is probably the leading reason.

[terrestrial]

29 minutes ago, AndyK said:

How long was WW in development hell though ?

I think not having a good script is probably the leading reason.

Whedon's leaked script is from 2006

[robertman2]

5 hours ago, terrestrial said:

It's about the claims of quite some (all over the board and elsewhere), that the success of WW is the (for some even 'sole') reason other studios even dare / got the idea to do female lead movies too. Just in case.

(plus the reasons for long development times can be very different, not all of those are for a situation why I'd use development hell as a term, but in general I agree)

 

I looked up the date: the articles about Lionsgate not doing Black Widow are from early June 2006. At SHH this was to read

Hayter spoke with Marvel then too, I do see why they tried to include her as early as possible considering they had early on plans for spy parts, IM was already in preparation and so on

 

The fun detail is to me, the same guy who sold all the characters (and wrote himself as a 'must be involved producer into the contracts, beside not being a 100% owner, something he would here end before court for undue enrichment), had now to get some of them back.

How inconvenient a situations that had to be. 😉

 

Sometimes I forget David Hayter does more than voice Solid Snake

[terrestrial]

32 minutes ago, RobrtmanAStarWarsReference said:

Sometimes I forget David Hayter does more than voice Solid Snake

Lol

yeah, he is also the sole screenwriter for X-Men, co-screenwriter & co-story writer for X-Men 2, co-screenplaywriter of Watchmen, does some small roles as actor and quite some voice acting (those I do not know, I do not play games, do not watch animated,....)

= hence the reason I am aware of him - without knowing background

   
He seems to write, direct, and produce a TV mini-series for the moment

 OT = spoiler tags

Spoiler

 

:Not sure what to think about that project

Quote

World War III (release seemingly in 2019)

A story of the future where robots have taken over the world and destroyed the human kind. Now the almighty gods have to fight their way to the better life.

 

[Spidey Freak]

On 10/13/2018 at 2:57 PM, terrestrial said:

I really do not understand why ppl even try to compare the behind the scenes situations and forget to fast details like: Wonder Woman & Captain Marvel both got announced in Oct 2014, that WW (or more strange, WWs success) was the reason for Captain Marvel / Marvel female lead is, what I disagree with the most.

WW got released in 2017, CM will get released in 2019, see my earlier posts, I think it shows a bit of what I meant.

People aren't "forgetting". I think I've already discussed before how the announcement of CM just seemed to be a reaction to the announcement of WW as there was nothing really decided about the CM film in October 2014 other than... it existed? And then it ended up being pushed back a couple of times, which is the reason it has still not released while WW2 is already filming and BoP will begin filming too. And the rights issue doesn't apply to Carol Danvers. 

 

Feige himself has stated multiple times how beneficial WW breaking out has become when it comes to convincing people (old white male execs) that female superhero films aren't a risky venture any more. BW though would've still taken a lot more time (if it had been greenlit at all) if WW didn't happen when it did. And WB/DC announcing multiple female superhero movies and getting at least two big hits in films with breakout female characters (WW and Harley Quinn) has definitely spurred Marvel to be much more proactive when it comes to greater female inclusion.

 

This is just the way the business works. Marvel and DC have for decades influenced each other when it comes to stories and characters in comics. The same thing is being reflected in the film divisions too. It's not THAT complicated lol

[terrestrial]

19 hours ago, Spidey Freak said:

People aren't "forgetting". I think I've already discussed before how the announcement of CM just seemed to be a reaction to the announcement of WW as there was nothing really decided about the CM film in October 2014 other than... it existed? And then it ended up being pushed back a couple of times, which is the reason it has still not released while WW2 is already filming and BoP will begin filming too. And the rights issue doesn't apply to Carol Danvers. 

 

Feige himself has stated multiple times how beneficial WW breaking out has become when it comes to convincing people (old white male execs) that female superhero films aren't a risky venture any more. BW though would've still taken a lot more time (if it had been greenlit at all) if WW didn't happen when it did. And WB/DC announcing multiple female superhero movies and getting at least two big hits in films with breakout female characters (WW and Harley Quinn) has definitely spurred Marvel to be much more proactive when it comes to greater female inclusion.

 

This is just the way the business works. Marvel and DC have for decades influenced each other when it comes to stories and characters in comics. The same thing is being reflected in the film divisions too. It's not THAT complicated lol

 

Not disagreeing in general, for me it is mostly about the 100% formulations of too many ppl, like there was no female planed... its too absolute for my taste, not enough differentiation.

I do see the difference between the high ups and the ppl that do commission screenplays. Hence my earlier remark, Feige still has bosses, him not being boss of distribution too as an example.

But I do think you too might underestimate the logistic... differences between Marvel and WB.

 

edit: I put the biggest part in spoiler tags as the text is a bit (aka way too) too long

Spoiler

To get the money for something unproven you have to bring a lot of arguments. Like a famous name (character), successful book series.... That is something the DC ppl have with every character in their approach of building up their world. That alone could be a deciding stepping stone.

 

But than there is the problem of Marvel only doing their own (and that limited by legal issues) material. Means, they have to move way more cautious, they can not do for some years a break with 'that kind' of source material. What will also make the high ups (I really mean the highest up ones) even more cautious.

 

Into that plays in my POV, that they (Marvel) plan the way bigger world build up too. They do that a lot by grouping characters. That also is a complete other way to approach than WB/DC does it for the moment. Plus they introduce constantly more characters that will be recurring characters in the future. Big difference in approach, to me it lessens a bit the need for solo character movies in the next few phases to a degree. Including a little bit the need to look for what kind of under-represented groups need an own film. I do hopw for Asian representation, I do hope for far more females in some ~ worlds (magic, Asgardians). But we will need also some replacements of the older characters. Black Panther was for me at least a Wakanda movie too, maybe even more than a movie about BP. Would all females (and males) really need an own movie? Not earnestly meant, only to show, I am not sure if only a female lead movie (that is called as such) is a proof for including females that are seen and treated as equals. And still I want more of that ~ normality.

 

I do not know if you remember what Feige also told, like their plan up to 2029 (or was 2028?).

Based on problems with creative ppl also, scheduling problems not only of actors, pregnancies (twice), accidents (Sif actress), legal discussions, ideas that were not clear if possible or not and based on the FOR NOW possible use of e.g. Spidey there were a lot of changes (or do you think Rothman would have agreed to the use of Spidey, or witht the agreed on contract details? I doubt it)

 

In the way Marvel does the 'big' story, it means if there is a bigger change at one end (like the move of a release date to a date after another's movie release), there has to be adjustments to scripts of future films, incl those in development. They release now up to 3 movies per year. Means all of their staff is involved with the actual filming films, the developments, the release. One change has a lot of impact for a team like that, there is no reserve.

 

Plus in an usual longer existing studio, they have more film making experienced ppl involved in the different higher up departments as Marvel had before the Disney buy. All high ups at Marvel were then not based on film making, even worse, had a rather biased POV focused on one customer group only.

But a company buy means also a time of reorganisation.... also slows down for a time projects that are seen as risky by the old ones. Lot's of reasons to make the convincing of those kind of high ups probably more difficult

 

Then there is something I personally think is very important to find a balance:

not to start too big of a story... as it is usually way too difficult to find something bigger to follow that. In especial important, if you try to create something longer lasting as the mostly (if at all) trilogies we so often get and got.

 

Captain Marvel way earlier? IMHO not a good idea. Black Widow way earlier, yes. A BW movie in phase 2 would have been good. CM after Avengers 2 before Avengers 3: if the story would have matched her extremer abilities, yes. Otherwise, I think the big - bigger - the biggest needs of multi movie releases, the release date of CM directly before Avengers 4 might be even helpful in the long run of the MCU.

But also the smaller BOs of film like Ant-Man, getting ppl (probably unintended) used to 'o.K.' results will help maybe equally in the long run

 

They did the intro movie for a solo character at the beginning, like IM 1, IHulk (IMHO more like 1/2 MCU film), and Thor.

Plan was: Ant-Man as the 4th founding member as the next film. But again, changes had to be made, fotr reasons not based on ppl of the studio. Producing ppl can't stay without work.... they started to film IM2 without a script. Grappling behind, juggling..., just getting the right to include BW at least (instead of Wasp). SH abilities, but not too big, leaving room for more.

Adding a team next, building up reputation,...

I mean at the beginning a lot of ppl doubted those 'C-level' characters to be successful.

Who knows, maybe they would have done a BW solo film in phase 2 without the Ant-Man delay, we will probably never know.

 

Incl the reasons for the pushing CM back and so on to me it never felt like it (CM and BW) was a reaction to WW, and I waited for a successful decently made female lead SH since latest the first Superman film got released (so yay to Wonder Woman).

 

But equally at least I was waiting for female equal fighting characters not as in a special solo version, but in the naturally accruing/being there way. And that I start to see in the MCU more than elsewhere, especial since BP. Still more needed, see magic... I start to repeat myself I think.

 

A theme too close to my heart.

 

But I do strongly belief Feige had a way better starting point in convincing the higher and high ups for the next some movies involving female fighting characters based on WW success (starting even before WW as a solo film got releases).

 

If he extends his contract. But I guess (hope) he will, as there were some remarks about him getting responsible for the X-Men too.

 

Now my head might explode, too long a text, too many forgotten English terms.

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by terrestrial

[andersonhoran]

8 hours ago, Spidey Freak said:

People aren't "forgetting". I think I've already discussed before how the announcement of CM just seemed to be a reaction to the announcement of WW as there was nothing really decided about the CM film in October 2014 other than... it existed? And then it ended up being pushed back a couple of times, which is the reason it has still not released while WW2 is already filming and BoP will begin filming too. And the rights issue doesn't apply to Carol Danvers. 

 

Feige himself has stated multiple times how beneficial WW breaking out has become when it comes to convincing people (old white male execs) that female superhero films aren't a risky venture any more. BW though would've still taken a lot more time (if it had been greenlit at all) if WW didn't happen when it did. And WB/DC announcing multiple female superhero movies and getting at least two big hits in films with breakout female characters (WW and Harley Quinn) has definitely spurred Marvel to be much more proactive when it comes to greater female inclusion.

 

This is just the way the business works. Marvel and DC have for decades influenced each other when it comes to stories and characters in comics. The same thing is being reflected in the film divisions too. It's not THAT complicated lol

Captain Marvel was announced in 2014 just like Black Panther,Thor Ragnarok,Guardians vol.2...like all the other phase 3 movies.

Marvel has a calendar to be followed, they don't release random movies, but movies that will add to the universe and will have a narrative value, unlike the other studio that every month announces a movie but none of then leaves the paper...oh, and keeps recycling Marvel's scraps. Marvel already has iconic strong female characters like Black Widow,The Wasp,Captain Marvel,Scarlet Witch,Gamora,Okoye,Hela....and none of them needs to be half-naked. 

Do I need to remember you that the failed DCEU exist only because of the MCU? 

Edited October 14, 2018 by andersonhoran

[andersonhoran]

DC fanboys already being butthurt because the only DCEU thing that was not a total failure is already being overshadowed by Captain Marvel. 

[andersonhoran]

Can't wait to see the solo movie of the first major female heroine in CBM.

Edited October 14, 2018 by andersonhoran

[Napoleon]

34 minutes ago, andersonhoran said:

Can't wait to see the solo movie of the first major female heroine in CBM.

[Spidey Freak]

46 minutes ago, andersonhoran said:

Can't wait to see the solo movie of the first major female heroine in CBM.

Dat Asian representation!

[Hades]

1 hour ago, Spidey Freak said:

Dat Asian representation!

I wonder if they will give her a minority  best friend/sidekick like most of the other MCU solo heroes...

[Deja23]

YIKES at this thread. Guess this is what we have to look forward to with Captain Marvel and Black Widow...and possibly every other solo female CBM, excepting Wonder Woman apparently. Yay!

[Rebeccas]

Truthfully Wonder Woman not having a single movie when Superman and Batman had already gone through like 3-4 cinematic actors was pretty.. weird. Before 2012, I didn't even know who Black Widow was like idk why she would even be talked about as getting a solo film until she really broke out as a character in TWS. Captain Marvel I would not have been able to tell you anything about until like 2 years ago.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Rebeccas