Midsommar | July 3, 2019 | Florence Pugh, Jack Reynor, Will Poulter | A24 | Ari Aster (Hereditary) directing

[Valonqar]

6 minutes ago, Ipickthiswhiterose said:

 

That's what makes me so curious about Aster's movies.

 

The people who hate them really, truly, viscerally hate them for reasons that seem utterly beyond comprehension.

 

They are superb movies that are thematically rich, complex, disturbing, and fairly watertight. Pretty much everything horror should be.

 

If you don't appreciate them, or dislike them, or find them a bit slow, fine. But don't pretend they don't hang together, or don't make sense or are poorly made because....well they just so self-evidently aren't.

I can explain why I hate his horror. I'm going to put this in spoiler brackets just in case:

 

I see horror movies as good vs evil and to me it's cathartic to see unstoppable evil stopped. It's optimistic. Ari Aster is nihilistic. Evil always wins. there's never anyone to root for. everyone succumbs to evil. there's no catharsis that something is achieved. the whole movie is always for nothing. nothing is stopped even for a moment. Most beloved horror movies at least give you respite from evil-doing in that you know that Final Girl or The Losers or other hero you were rooting for are OK, even if Michael/Freddie/Jason/Pennywise are still implied to lurk somewhere. but the heroes are OK, they achieved something and most importantly they stayed pure. Lori doesn't take Michael's mask to become a killer. Regan doesn't smile creepily behind everyone's backs implying that Pazuzu is still in her or that she was an actual bad seed (rendering Father Karas sacrifice pointless), The Losers don't create the Pennywise cult and start doing human sacrifices, etc.

 

Ari Aster movies are 100% opposite of what I just described. he's the Ruin Roundhead of horror. all he cares is to subvert expectations and turn everyone off. Every single horror movie he made can be summed up in this quote:

 

"you were the chosen one! it was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them! bring balance to the force...not leave it in darkness!"

 

This maniac always leaves his movies in darkness, always. At the end of his movies, things are worse than at the beginning and middle. Fuck him and fuck his stupid fad. There.

 

 

[The Futurist]

Finding a movie disturbing again is an elite/bourgeois premise.

 

Life is disturbing enough for the working class, thank you very much.

 

Wanting to see a movie like Midsomar is a luxury, you have to be so bored and safe to be able to enjoy it to a certain degree.

 

You know I am right, you just can't admit it to yourslef.

Edited July 5, 2019 by The Futurist

[Ipickthiswhiterose]

Valonqar

 

Thanks for giving your perspective, I value you have taken the time to do it. However I very strongly disagree with this take.

 

Firstly I completely disagree that horror should be about good v evil.

 

But more to the point Midsommar (and I'm trying to work without any kind of spoilers here) simply doesn't have the dynamics you insinuate. It is an optimistic movie and I think you are misjudging what the "Evil" in this film was. 

 

I have put up a review of the movie in the review section that is able to work with spoilers.

 

There are no subverting of expectations here, he doesn't follow the horror formula but then the movie never presents itself with a standard horror formula.

 

I know it is a tired, pseud thing to say that I don't think you understood the movie and it's a risky and arrogant thing to do....but I do suggest that you are putting a more standard template on this film than it ever pretended to have. This is not a

Spoiler

protagonists v creepy evil cult movie. It isn't Green Inferno or Cannibal Holocaust.

and reading it as such is a huge disservice to its intentions.

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Ipickthiswhiterose

[Ipickthiswhiterose]

13 minutes ago, The Futurist said:

Finding a movie disturbing again is an elite/bourgeois premise.

 

Life is disturbing enough for the working class, thank you very much.

 

Wanting to see a movie like Midsomar is a luxury, you have to be so bored and safe to be able to enjoy it to a certain degree.

 

You know I am right, you just can't admit it to yourslef.

 

Wanting to see ANY movie is a luxury. 

 

No. I know you have observed some basic seeds of argument and you think that because you have observed some basic seeds of argument that is the equivalent of a concrete discourse. Spectating violence as entertainment is indeed a privileged act, but why apply that argument to this specific film - that is actually more about exploring everyday concepts and ideas rather than intending to titillate with its violence - when basically all movies have violence in?

 

The dynamics you're discussing apply more to rote horror and violent blockbusters than they do to movies like Midsommar. Easily. Those movies much more frequently use violence in this privileged manner.

 

And in terms of safety - Midsommar plays less on affect and more on cognition than the average horror movie. It is one of the movies that places the spectator in a state of threat the least, because you are always kept distant from the action. Your reading works much better with something like Halloween and Texas Chainsaw Massacre because they are about putting the viewer in the body of the spectator.

 

I could recommend some texts about the subject if you genuinely are interested in it. I don't expect so but the offer is there.

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Ipickthiswhiterose

[Hatebox]

32 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

I can explain why I hate his horror. I'm going to put this in spoiler brackets just in case:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I see horror movies as good vs evil and to me it's cathartic to see unstoppable evil stopped. It's optimistic. Ari Aster is nihilistic. Evil always wins. there's never anyone to root for. everyone succumbs to evil. there's no catharsis that something is achieved. the whole movie is always for nothing. nothing is stopped even for a moment. Most beloved horror movies at least give you respite from evil-doing in that you know that Final Girl or The Losers or other hero you were rooting for are OK, even if Michael/Freddie/Jason/Pennywise are still implied to lurk somewhere. but the heroes are OK, they achieved something and most importantly they stayed pure. Lori doesn't take Michael's mask to become a killer. Regan doesn't smile creepily behind everyone's backs implying that Pazuzu is still in her or that she was an actual bad seed (rendering Father Karas sacrifice pointless), The Losers don't create the Pennywise cult and start doing human sacrifices, etc.

 

 

Ari Aster movies are 100% opposite of what I just described. he's the Ruin Roundhead of horror. all he cares is to subvert expectations and turn everyone off. Every single horror movie he made can be summed up in this quote:

 

"you were the chosen one! it was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them! bring balance to the force...not leave it in darkness!"

 

This maniac always leaves his movies in darkness, always. At the end of his movies, things are worse than at the beginning and middle. Fuck him and fuck his stupid fad. There.

 

 

 

 

I strongly disagree with horror movies needing to have a ray of hope, but with regards to Midsommar

Spoiler

Isn't the point of the movie that, in her fucked up way, the lead girl has found a ray of hope? She's free from her toxic relationship and has a new family, even if that family is a band of psychopathic cultists. 

 

 

[Valonqar]

36 minutes ago, Hatebox said:

I strongly disagree with horror movies needing to have a ray of hope, but with regards to Midsommar

  Hide contents

 

Isn't the point of the movie that, in her fucked up way, the lead girl has found a ray of hope? She's free from her toxic relationship and has a new family, even if that family is a band of psychopathic cultists. 

 

 

 

no, because the cultists are far more toxic and so is what she did in the end. or are we going to pretend that her boyfriend and his friends being regular douchebags were worse than cultists who fed her and everyone else drugs, made them do things they didn't want (boyfriend was drugged out of his mind when he supposedly "cheated") and were killing people because some folk shit? I don't see how an ending where she basically became as insane as her sister is optimistic. Cultists are not a good family. they are evil. they do evil things. they force people to join by drugging them. nobody is safe. time will come when she'll be sacrificed too. as the matter of fact, what happened to previous May Queens? yeah. anyway. it's nihilistic af and no wonder why it doesn't work for most people. you have to invent some BS "Yas Queen Slay" narrative (that isn't there) to excuse it. You know what would be satisfying? Going Inglorious Bastards on the cult. kill them all. But I understand this isn't a story about good people winning in the end.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Valonqar

[Hatebox]

13 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

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no, because the cultists are far more toxic and so is what she did in the end. or are we going to pretend that her boyfriend and his friends being regular douchebags were worse than cultists who fed her and everyone else drugs, made them do things they didn't want (boyfriend was drugged out of his mind when he supposedly "cheated") and were killing people because some folk shit? I don't see how an ending where she basically became as insane as her sister is optimistic. Cultists are not a good family. they are evil. they do evil things. they force people to join by drugging them. nobody is safe. time will come when she'll be sacrificed too. as the matter of fact, what happened to previous May Queens? yeah. anyway. it's nihilistic af and no wonder why it doesn't work for most people. you have to invent some BS "Yas Queen Slay" narrative (that isn't there) to excuse it. You know what would be satisfying? Going Inglorious Bastards on the cult. kill them all. But I understand this isn't a story about good people winning in the end.

It's undoubtedly more metaphorical than literal. Some people will be happy to meet the movie halfway on those terms and some won't - both are reasonable reactions.  

 

Spoiler

Just don't ever watch the original Wicker Man, you'll hate it! 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Hatebox

[Valonqar]

2 minutes ago, Hatebox said:

It's undoubtedly more metaphorical than literal. Some people will be happy to meet the movie halfway on those terms and some won't - both are reasonable reactions.  

 

  Hide contents

Just don't ever watch the original Wicker Man, you'll hate it! 

 

I hear it's a rip off. Never seen WM. It's some trash with Nicholas Cage right?

[Hatebox]

1 minute ago, Valonqar said:

 

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I hear it's a rip off. Never seen WM. It's some trash with Nicholas Cage right?

 

No, that was a so-bad-it's-good remake. The original is one of the most influential horror films ever. 

[baumer]

This is 2.5 hours long.

[Ipickthiswhiterose]

28 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

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no, because the cultists are far more toxic and so is what she did in the end. or are we going to pretend that her boyfriend and his friends being regular douchebags were worse than cultists who fed her and everyone else drugs, made them do things they didn't want (boyfriend was drugged out of his mind when he supposedly "cheated") and were killing people because some folk shit? I don't see how an ending where she basically became as insane as her sister is optimistic. Cultists are not a good family. they are evil. they do evil things. they force people to join by drugging them. nobody is safe. time will come when she'll be sacrificed too. as the matter of fact, what happened to previous May Queens? yeah. anyway. it's nihilistic af and no wonder why it doesn't work for most people. you have to invent some BS "Yas Queen Slay" narrative (that isn't there) to excuse it. You know what would be satisfying? Going Inglorious Bastards on the cult. kill them all. But I understand this isn't a story about good people winning in the end.

 

Spoiler

Horrible analysis.

 

It isn't 'inventing' a narrative to say the ending is happy. That's the narrative. Overtly. She triumphs over her own personal moribund nature and death. The only way you disagree is because you are reading this film as if it's an evil cult v protagonists movie. Again, it isn't. It's about getting around fear of death and the fact that inactivity, failure to confront grief, and bad relationships are all a form of death.

 

You are massively, massively underestimating how appalling a character her boyfriend was. Nothing to do with the cheating. He was in all ways a parasite. A non-human. A parasite of energy, a parasite of lifestyle and a parasite of intelligence - as also evidence by his ripping off of his friend's research.

 

The cultists aren't 'good'. They are however consistent and represent a coherent way of life. Dani doesn't have a happy ending because she 'joins' the cultists. We don't know what happens afterwards.

 

The cultists had way less agency that you are claiming. Everyone took drugs on their own volunteering for instance. The only true agency-less characters here were Dani's parents, who were subject to the selfish brutality of another parasite - Dani's sister (well, depression really)

 

She is told "join her fellow queens" in the dialogue referring to her duties after the ceremony, so no, the May queen isn't sacrificed. There are a bunch of them still in the society. Indeed it is made overtly clear that sacrifice only happens once every 90 years.  

 

It's not about the cult being 'good'. They were right for this tragic character at this stage in her life. 

 

The daft thing is - it is clear from your posts that this film has disturbed you. Is that not indicative that this was successful? 

 

There are all sorts of horror movies where it's obvious that 'evil' will win from the outset and I share scorn of those films: any Friday 13th Movie, Final Destination, Drag Me To Hell and so on. But this applies to neither Hereditary (where we had no idea of the hopelessness of the situation until the end) or Midsommar (where all the characters had agency throughout the film and people simply received consequences, sometimes hyperbolic, for their own actions)

 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Ipickthiswhiterose

[Valonqar]

8 minutes ago, Ipickthiswhiterose said:

 

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Horrible analysis.

 

It isn't 'inventing' a narrative to say the ending is happy. That's the narrative. Overtly. She triumphs over her own personal moribund nature and death. The only way you disagree is because you are reading this film as if it's an evil cult v protagonists movie. Again, it isn't. It's about getting around fear of death and the fact that inactivity and bad relationships are a form of death.

 

You are massively, massively underestimating how appalling a character her boyfriend was. Nothing to do with the cheating. He was in all ways a parasite. A non-human. A parasite of energy, a parasite of lifestyle and a parasite of intelligence - as also evidence by his ripping off of his friend's research.

 

The cultists aren't 'good'. They are however consistent and represent a coherent way of life. Dani doesn't have a happy ending because she 'joins' the cultists. We don't know what happens afterwards.

 

The cultists had way less agency that you are claiming. Everyone took drugs on their own volunteering for instance. The only true agency-less characters here were Dani's parents, who were subject to the selfish brutality of another parasite - Dani's sister (well, depression really)

 

She is told "join her fellow queens" in the dialogue referring to her duties after the ceremony, so no, the May queen isn't sacrificed. There are a bunch of them still in the society. Indeed it is made overtly clear that sacrifice only happens once every 90 years.  

 

It's not about the cult being 'good'. They were right for this tragic character at this stage in her life. 

 

 

we'll agree to disagree. I respect your take but disagree 100%. You won't change my mind about Ari's repetitive shit. Evil cult always wins. It won in Hereditary. It won here. Fuck this shit and fuck his overactors too. Collette stans were so ridiculous last year. I'm so happy she missed on Oscars for most laughable actressing. Now we'll have another round with Knives Out. Oh joy.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Valonqar

[Ipickthiswhiterose]

2 minutes ago, Valonqar said:

 

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we'll agree to disagree. I respect your take but disagree 100%. You won't change my mind about Ari's repetitive shit. Evil cult always wins. It won in Hereditary. It won here. Fuck this shit and fuck his overactors too. Collette stans were so ridiculous last year. I'm so happy she missed on Oscars for most laughable actressing. Now we'll have another round with Knives Out. Oh joy.

 

 

Spoiler

 

Hereditary wasn't about the cult. That was what was innovative about it. It was Paimon v Family. The cult was just a tool (unlike Rosemary's Baby which was the reverse - it WAS family v Cult with Satan being the tool) It's one of the only times there's been a really successful translation of a massive otherworldly entity trading blows with little people.

 

If you don't like this because you can't get round the 'evil cult' angle. How do you feel about Silence of the Lambs?

 

In Silence of the Lambs, Lecter isn't the antagonist and he assists Clarice. Doesn't make him 'good'

 

In Hellraiser, Pinhead and the cenobites aren't the antagonist and they assist Kirsty. Doesn't make them 'good'.

 

Both Lector and Pinhead get what they want at the end of their respective films, but EVIL hasn't won overall in those films.

 

The cult here are the same. They are a partially nefarious entity who the protagonist ends up, even with their macabre means, triumphing from. 

 

Candyman is an even closer alignment. 

 

 

[CoolioD1]

2 hours ago, The Futurist said:

Finding a movie disturbing again is an elite/bourgeois premise.

 

Life is disturbing enough for the working class, thank you very much.

 

Wanting to see a movie like Midsomar is a luxury, you have to be so bored and safe to be able to enjoy it to a certain degree.

 

You know I am right, you just can't admit it to yourslef.

but you could say this about anything, it's a lazy argument. life is sad enough so sad movies are elitist so i guess that means titanic is elitist filmmaking. i'm sure this all sounds very smart in your head.

 

btw whether it's bros or elitists or whoever maybe go one week without painting everyone who likes a thing you might not like as bad. film taste isn't a dichotomy. you can just be like "not my thing" and not try to target everyone who's into it and make them seem shitty. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by CoolioD1

[Valonqar]

1 hour ago, Ipickthiswhiterose said:

 

  Hide contents

 

Hereditary wasn't about the cult. That was what was innovative about it. It was Paimon v Family. The cult was just a tool (unlike Rosemary's Baby which was the reverse - it WAS family v Cult with Satan being the tool) It's one of the only times there's been a really successful translation of a massive otherworldly entity trading blows with little people.

 

If you don't like this because you can't get round the 'evil cult' angle. How do you feel about Silence of the Lambs?

 

In Silence of the Lambs, Lecter isn't the antagonist and he assists Clarice. Doesn't make him 'good'

 

In Hellraiser, Pinhead and the cenobites aren't the antagonist and they assist Kirsty. Doesn't make them 'good'.

 

Both Lector and Pinhead get what they want at the end of their respective films, but EVIL hasn't won overall in those films.

 

The cult here are the same. They are a partially nefarious entity who the protagonist ends up, even with their macabre means, triumphing from. 

 

Candyman is an even closer alignment. 

 

 

 

 

 

Clarice is iconic. She's good. She saves the girl. Dany turns evil. You cannot possibly compare Clarice offing the Buffalo Bill, a freakin serial killer, with Dany sacrificing her boyfriend just because he was a bit of a douche (like many people you'd know, nothing out of ordinary) and ultimately the victim of the cult (that drugged him and forced him to have sex in front of everyone).  Clarice took Hannibal's help to save the girl but she never became like him. Dany became as bad as the evil cult because they manipulated her into thinking they were on her side. They gave her drugs. They made her think her boyfriend was a cheater. They need people to sacrifice. How the fuck is this a happy ending? She's evil and they will get rid of her too cause they do that to their members. or you really think they will stay benevolent for another 90 years? LOL, who buys that? Again, what happened to previous May Queens? Eh? Where are they? That's not a happy ending buddy, not even metaphorical. You find a family with evil cult that relish in sacrificing BOTH its members and outsiders. yeah, happy af. 

 

we aren't seeing halfway here and never will. you won't change my mind, I won't change yours so this is the last thing I'll ever post in this thread.

[Ipickthiswhiterose]

1 hour ago, Valonqar said:

 

  Hide contents

Clarice is iconic. She's good. She saves the girl. Dany turns evil. You cannot possibly compare Clarice offing the Buffalo Bill, a freakin serial killer, with Dany sacrificing her boyfriend just because he was a bit of a douche (like many people you'd know, nothing out of ordinary) and ultimately the victim of the cult (that drugged him and forced him to have sex in front of everyone).  Clarice took Hannibal's help to save the girl but she never became like him. Dany became as bad as the evil cult because they manipulated her into thinking they were on her side. They gave her drugs. They made her think her boyfriend was a cheater. They need people to sacrifice. How the fuck is this a happy ending? She's evil and they will get rid of her too cause they do that to their members. or you really think they will stay benevolent for another 90 years? LOL, who buys that? Again, what happened to previous May Queens? Eh? Where are they? That's not a happy ending buddy, not even metaphorical. You find a family with evil cult that relish in sacrificing BOTH its members and outsiders. yeah, happy af. 

 

 

we aren't seeing halfway here and never will. you won't change my mind, I won't change yours so this is the last thing I'll ever post in this thread.

 

 

Spoiler

She did become like him. That's so clearly the authorial intention that Clarice is brainwashed and becomes evil in the next book. In a manner far more overt than Dani here.

 

I can because it's a fictional work that isn't meant to be literal. Mundane, one-sided toxic relationships, the tolerance of shitty friends, and people who have become inert due to grief is a far more common antagonist in the everyday world than pagan cults. The pagan cult is horror-movie dressing. The movie is about taking the positives of that pagan culture: not fearing death, being honest about when we feel touched, realising that all things end, finding community with people who will share with us. Is it saying the cult is good? No, their philosophy is flawed as evidenced by the sacrifice who has a panic attack at the end - that's a clear signpost that their worldview is itself a mess.

 

However their behaviour remains consistent. Once again, the previous May queens are clearly referenced in the dialogue - "come into here with the other queens" was the line or roughly that equivalent. They aren't dead, that's a red herring. 

 

Will they stay "benevolent"? Well that's it, they aren't benevolent, nor are they malfeasant. They have a series of rules and philosophies and they stick to them. They aren't just out to get everyone and they aren't going end-of-days Heaven's Gate on anything. They might be generally speaking evil, but they have a clear code. Nobody in this film got killed who didn't specifically do something they were directly told not to do, or behaved in a manner that was flagrantly disrespectful to the environment they were in. The only exceptions were Dani's parents, and the cult members who give themselves willingly because they don't fear death and believe their death is a part of the natural order of things.

 

Again, we don't know she will stay with the cult at the end. Nor, frankly, does it matter.

 

A note: You say they "manipulated her into thinking her boyfriend was a cheater". No they didn't. They specifically did what they could to prevent her from finding out. She chose to go and seek out what was going on, physically breaking away from the group to do it. She could have just not paid attention and in the end not picked him as the last sacrifice. Equally even though the cult goaded Christian into infidelity, there was plenty of opportunity for him to avoid it. It wasn't as though this was some inevitable end-point for him.

 

 

 

[RealLyre]

James Wan invented bourgeois cinema.

[filmlover]

8 hours ago, The Futurist said:

Finding a movie disturbing again is an elite/bourgeois premise.

 

Life is disturbing enough for the working class, thank you very much.

 

Wanting to see a movie like Midsomar is a luxury, you have to be so bored and safe to be able to enjoy it to a certain degree.

 

You know I am right, you just can't admit it to yourslef.

Ann Dowd just showed up to yell "The Futurist, I expel you!"

[Krissykins]

This was amazing. 

 

 

 

Valonquar for someone who hates this type of horror and director, you sure rushed out really quick to see Midsommar?? It’s only been out for 2 days: 

[Eric Duncan]